Podcast Overview
There are seismic changes rocking the eCommerce world at the moment.
In this episode of eCom@One, host Richard Hill sits down with John Brolly, Head of Partnerships EMEA of Athos Commerce, for a deep dive into the seismic changes rocking the eCommerce world; driven by AI, product data, and new approaches to product discovery. With unique insights spanning thousands of retailers, agencies and brands, John reveals why great product data is now at the heart of visibility, conversion and profit online.
From conversational AI search to data hygiene, merchandising strategies and operational efficiency, this conversation explores the tactics that are separating today’s most successful eCommerce businesses from the rest. If you’re curious about leveraging product feeds, tapping into LLMs, or staying ahead of the latest digital transformations, this episode delivers real-world examples, actionable advice and a look into the future of eCommerce innovation.
Hit subscribe now, it’s time to discover where the real opportunities are in the new age of eCommerce.
00:00 AI and product data in eCommerce
06:02 Improving the shopping experience
08:55 Using AI to read data
11:45 Improving product feeds with AI
14:40 Early challenges in AI partnerships
18:42 Improving site search and merchandising
19:59 Changing consumer habits
25:18 Managing end-of-year finances
26:54 Faster proof-of-concept development
29:42 The importance of communication skills
34:20 Exciting trends in eCommerce
35:57 AI’s impact on agencies
40:04 Favourite dystopian author inspires name
41:59 Closing and subscribe reminder
John Brolly [00:00:05]:
I've got a question for you, if that's all right. Is that allowed?
Richard Hill [00:00:07]:
We might, we might, we might edit out. What are some of the other opportunities you're seeing in AI?
John Brolly [00:00:17]:
Consumers are moving to that conversational way of product discovery, but at the core of it all is great product data. So we can't ignore that.
Richard Hill [00:00:30]:
Yeah, it's so exciting. So exciting.
John Brolly [00:00:32]:
And who knows where we end up though.
Richard Hill [00:00:34]:
We'll leave that a mystery for now. Hey, everyone, it's Richard here. Welcome back to the Ecom at One podcast. Today I'm joined by John Brolly from Athos Commerce and we're talking about one of the biggest shifts in E commerce right now, how AI and product data and product discovery are changing the way brands are getting found and sell online. Now John has a front row view across agencies, brands and thousands of retailers, which gives him a unique perspective of what's really going on in E commerce right now. In this episode, we unpack what John's seeing across retailers and why product data is becoming a major driver in visibility and conversion and of course, profit and what brands need to focus on now to stay ahead. So whether you're trying to get your head around AI product feeds, LLM visibility, or the future of E commerce, search the this episode will help you understand where the real opportunities are. Now, do me one quick favor, hit the subscriber follow button wherever you are listening to this episode.
Richard Hill [00:01:31]:
So you never miss an episode. Right, let's dive in. Well, thanks for coming on the show, John. Really, really. Thanks for coming over to see us.
John Brolly [00:01:41]:
Thank you for having me.
Richard Hill [00:01:42]:
We've met a couple of times over the years, but we haven't really had a proper. Proper. Proper what? I would say a proper chat. So it's great to have you in. Great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming over to Lincoln.
John Brolly [00:01:51]:
To our honor and a pleasure.
Richard Hill [00:01:53]:
Thank you.
John Brolly [00:01:53]:
Thank you.
Richard Hill [00:01:54]:
So my understanding and my researchers tell me that you are a man that knows a lot of people in Ecom. A lot. A lot of people. A lot of agencies, a lot of brands, more importantly, and obviously a lot of brands listen to our podcast. Not a lot of agencies. And I'm really keen to understand, you know, we're sort of sitting on the. On the other side of Q1 has just been and gone. You know, we're sort of mid.
Richard Hill [00:02:18]:
Mid april almost and Q1, it's usually quite an interesting time for a lot of econ brands. But what are you sort of seeing out there? What have you seen in Q1 in terms of the. The E Comm brands, a bit of fluctuation.
John Brolly [00:02:31]:
I think there was a bit of hangover from Q4 last year.
Richard Hill [00:02:35]:
Yep.
John Brolly [00:02:36]:
A bit of intrepidation. So it started off slow, then got a bit intense and then filtered off towards, you know, an early Easter. And I think, if I'm honest, an early Easter made a bit of a difference. Closing Q1. So towards the tail end of Q1, little bit more quiet, but very much a quite an active mid period, for sure. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:02:59]:
So probably a more active February than normal, I'd say.
John Brolly [00:03:04]:
So. I mean, it's, you know, it's just the gamut of brands and retailers and merchants that you deal with, depending on their financial year, years, what they're looking at, whether there's tax, you know, the tech stack, it's up for review.
Richard Hill [00:03:16]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:03:17]:
It's hard to pinpoint one specific. So I just say it's quite, Quite fluid.
Richard Hill [00:03:22]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:03:22]:
You know, bit of a mixive, bit of a mix. Yeah. Few LS in between.
Richard Hill [00:03:26]:
You know, it's interesting time of year, isn't it? Because you're dealing with, obviously the. If you want to call it a hangover from Christmas or a good or a bad, you know, you've got maybe a lot of stock that's got to be paid for mid, late Jan, Feb. Yeah. So cash flow, potential challenges. Need to move some stock. So maybe a bit of. A ton of tighter margin is maybe needed to clear through some stock.
John Brolly [00:03:46]:
Exactly, yeah. Seasonal. We can't, you know. Yeah. You know, it's. It's a warm day today.
Richard Hill [00:03:50]:
It's nearly 25 degrees, John, today, usually
John Brolly [00:03:53]:
for the time, you know. Thank you. Brought the weather. It must be to do with a surname, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it's that external force that none of us have control over, you know, and is having an impact, you know, and the activity around, you know, what's going on in the world is a little bit more cautious, you know.
Richard Hill [00:04:11]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:04:12]:
But there is a buoyancy and I've got to talk about the weather and the weather comes in, the sun comes out, people seem a bit more alive and, you know, and ready to go for it.
Richard Hill [00:04:19]:
Yeah. You know, definitely makes a difference.
John Brolly [00:04:21]:
It does, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:04:22]:
It's a very, I think, exciting time of year. There seems to be a bit of a step change with a few people we're speaking to and an excitement, like you say, this time of year. I think the weather's a bit. I've talked about the weather on it. The UK Podcast, of course, of course
John Brolly [00:04:34]:
we got to talk about it. But that spring, that spring in your step. Yeah. Know, a bit more positivity. It generally lifts people's moods and people, you know, starting to make some plans, you know.
Richard Hill [00:04:45]:
So I think the, you know, I think that, like you say, there's, there's quite a lot going on at the moment around the world, you know, ecom and so forth. But ultimately you must see, I assume, certain patterns of things that successful Ecom stores are doing, you know, or things that the successful stores are doing.
John Brolly [00:05:02]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:05:03]:
You know, what are maybe three things that you're seeing stores that are doing well, doing that sort of, maybe helping that profitability. Because ultimately we sort of usually, we, we usually end up talking about profit. Yeah. In the podcast and in the agency and with our clients and so forth. Because ultimately it's pretty much common sense. If you're making a few quid, you usually doing all right.
John Brolly [00:05:22]:
If you're not, big driver. Yeah. It's conversion. Yeah. You know, I think, as you know, I'll talk about our, our platform in a little while, but what we offer, we offer an immediate uplift in conversion, which obviously aids profitability. Now, with that, I think the three things is, you know, everybody's talking about product data, and that is one of them. And I think product data, brand data, and data in itself, and data hygiene and structure to data is very key. Often brands, retailers might run away from it, but that's why they've got experts such as yourself, other agencies that will get involved and help them.
John Brolly [00:06:02]:
And the same for our technology, you know, so our technology will aid that product enrichment to therefore aid all the touch points where consumers are looking to, you know, to shop, to look for products. So I think that that data piece, and with that, I think general, you know, it's going to be a good experience, you know, whether we call it connected commerce, call it a seamless experience, whether it's brick and mortar, whether it's channel marketplace, whether it's on site, I think consumers are looking for that seamless experience. It's got to feel the same, it's got to be relevant and therefore understand your channels, including your own storefront, and make sure that you're delivering a really good user experience. A UX is key, you know.
Richard Hill [00:06:49]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:06:50]:
And then you know what, we might not talk about this in detail, but I'm an ops guy. Traditionally, operational efficiency and some of the more simplest things are just communication, communication, relevant communication as of when ensuring the right product pack delivery on time and then that goes through the entire offering that brands and retailers should be thinking
Richard Hill [00:07:11]:
about that consistency throughout brand message and the delivery, the way you present yourself. The service.
John Brolly [00:07:21]:
Yeah I mean the service is key. And know we talk about relevancy, I talk about product relevancy a lot but with that is also communication relevancy as well. Nobody wants to be spammed, nobody wants to see receive information that's meaningless.
Richard Hill [00:07:36]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:07:36]:
And it's just look after the essentials and I think it's some of the foundational pieces.
Richard Hill [00:07:41]:
Yeah. You know so three very specific areas there. I think the thing I'm really keen on and to discuss further is this sort of hygiene data.
John Brolly [00:07:50]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:07:51]:
Consistency you know and obviously that leaders is on to all sort and open opens up sort of.
John Brolly [00:07:57]:
You know we talk.
Richard Hill [00:07:58]:
We had a little chat earlier before about UCP and product feeds and it just. This is, this is the world we're in. This is you know this is like the difference between doing well, doing okay and then doing actually because everybody's using XYZ tool to get their AI this down the other to get their data
John Brolly [00:08:17]:
feed here here to be visible in so new channels.
Richard Hill [00:08:21]:
If we were to just open that up a bit more say right, well what are a couple of things in that sort of hygiene data feed? I know that's slightly off but it's there. What are one or two things that you think most of our listeners maybe have not got right?
John Brolly [00:08:38]:
Structured data and schema. Yeah, I think you know as you said we've been doing this for a while both of us. I was in the world of product feeds back in 2011, 2012 and it's a bit of a dark arts bit dirty, not really exciting.
Richard Hill [00:08:55]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:08:55]:
I think there's a point of we're making it exciting because it has to be so there's an ability within that structured format is to make it exciting. But with the rise of the new channels the LLMs that we will talk through is this ability for machines to read structured data correctly so you can extend your product data set way beyond descriptions to intent and usage. And furthermore micro attributes as I've been saying with some, some maybe give us
Richard Hill [00:09:26]:
as an example then say you sell. You know pick a product what what
John Brolly [00:09:30]:
it just like a, like an overshirt. If I've got an overshirt I'm wearing an overshirt today. It's. It's probably thicker than what I needed because I didn't know the temperatures specific attributes. So an attribute to wear it for
Richard Hill [00:09:40]:
this particular temperature or temperature.
John Brolly [00:09:42]:
Temperature yeah, yeah. Whether it's made from a linen breathable cotton.
Richard Hill [00:09:45]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:09:46]:
You know, go into that granular piece and then when you know, consumers are moving to that conversational way of product discovery. So I want to wear a lightweight shirt that you know, doesn't feel too heavy, that is breathable for 22 to 25 degrees.
Richard Hill [00:10:02]:
Yeah. So that search you just said is about 20 words.
John Brolly [00:10:05]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:10:06]:
And you've probably got your phone and you're on LLM XYZ and you're going, hey, I'm looking for a breathable shirt that's not too thin, not too thick, but okay. And I want it to be this color. But I need. So you've mentioned obviously the normal stuff like color and size but then you've gone in around the way more specific fix. You've added in three or four more
John Brolly [00:10:23]:
contextual usage or conversational use. And it's the conversational and, and, and that goes back to the structured data elements. So I mentioned micro, you know, micro attributes, low level attributes, whatever you want to term it. That's the extension from what product feeds used to be, which was product title description, you know, body description, etc.
Richard Hill [00:10:43]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:10:43]:
We're going into the low level behavioral intent usage of a product and I think that's the fascinating bit.
Richard Hill [00:10:51]:
Yeah. And then that feeds into, then obviously if you're using that information for data feeds, you know, product feeds, Google shopping matter, so forth. How's that going to impact?
John Brolly [00:11:03]:
Well, it's, it's, it's more than just feeds, it's on site as well. Again, I'll home back into to our platform in particular because we take care of the on site piece. So that conversational search also on site and building a what we call a rich product index.
Richard Hill [00:11:18]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:11:19]:
Allows for greater relevancy in bringing products back to consumers when they are searching for products. And I think that's, that's key across all channels. Whether that's current new LLMs as new channels, traditional marketplaces, traditional search engines, they still have a validity as well as well as on site. But at the core of it all is great product data.
Richard Hill [00:11:41]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:11:41]:
And I think we're going down a bit of a nerdy, nerdy hole here. But I can quite happily carry on.
Richard Hill [00:11:45]:
I love it because I think this is where, you know, I think probably, you know, however many hundreds of brands are listening right now on a good day. You know, I think, you know this, the reality is everyone's getting better at product feeds because you know, whichever platform they use, they've got their own AI that's making you know, this their you know as we call it, the level in the playing field, you know. But then how do you unlever somebody? This is somebody else's terminology, not mine. So I borrowed it for a second. But how do you unlevel. Everyone's getting better and better at feeds, you know because the tech, whether it's your tech, whoever's tech is getting better which is good, you know, great. But if everyone's using the same tech it's. Then you've really, really, really gotta use the tech properly.
Richard Hill [00:12:22]:
You know because we've got a lot of people buy tech and use you
John Brolly [00:12:24]:
know we could list various data 8020 rule.
Richard Hill [00:12:27]:
Yeah. So it's like what are we doing with that feed to not just right we're using insert whatever tech. Great, you're now already a little bit better. But if everyone's using the same tech, how do you level the platform?
John Brolly [00:12:38]:
I think, I think that's where brand an identity comes in as well. So we can't ignore that. You know, if you're a, if you're a particular read, you know, if you're a merchant or a brand and brand sentiment as well. Brand history, brand noise is important as well. Gotta differentiate yourself, you know, in the example of the shirt I'm not going to say what brand it is but it's a particular you know, label that I like to wear.
Richard Hill [00:13:01]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:13:02]:
And again I've got an affiliation with that, that label, you know. So that's why brand is important as well as content usage, product usage. But then it also goes into the wider aspect of we're talking about micro attributes is review and user generated content as well. That is key and you bring it all together and you bring in performance data across multiple channels. From a brand perspective you've really got a handle on what your consumers, what your prospects searching for.
Richard Hill [00:13:33]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very exciting, isn't it?
John Brolly [00:13:36]:
It is, it is, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:13:37]:
Yeah. I think it's like, I feel like like data feeds and feeds and product sort of data is having a say resurgence.
John Brolly [00:13:44]:
But I'd say it's a research.
Richard Hill [00:13:46]:
It is a bit of a, you know something we've always done. We've always had full time team that you know looked after data. Data feeds and product feeds. Yeah. More in the earlier days just for shopping, you know back in the day really. But obviously it sits across all channels really. You know ultimately if that data is got, you know the, the additional information
John Brolly [00:14:05]:
enrichment and another example is I take in perform because you know you work with a Number of external channels and you, you, you capture that audience, that segmentation behavior, that performance data. You can bring that back on to site, you can then merchandise accordingly with segments.
Richard Hill [00:14:23]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:14:23]:
And then you're making it a really seamless, you know, journey. Really seamless user experience.
Richard Hill [00:14:29]:
Yeah, yeah. And then we touched on ucp, didn't we, when we were chatting earlier? You know, and this all feeds into that, doesn't it? You know, ultimately you've got a better and better product data, means you're going
John Brolly [00:14:40]:
to appear more in things theoretically, expose yourself more into the LLMs machine readable, you know, and, and I think you're right. Sorry, Richard, Just to cut you short, and we were talking about ucp, it's still in its early infancy. You know, there's changes from some of the larger know, organisations involved in the space where one week they'll be going down one route, two weeks later they may have reversed out and then working with another partner. So as long as everybody is aware within, you know, within our space that some of the core of this is, is essentially good structured debt.
Richard Hill [00:15:15]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:15:16]:
Means that you will be able to support what comes.
Richard Hill [00:15:18]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:15:19]:
Whether that's transactions in LLMs or transactions of LLMs embedded in sight 100.
Richard Hill [00:15:25]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so exciting. It's so exciting. It's exciting. I mean, you literally, I mean, there now, isn't it really, you know, just grabbing your phone and going, hey, you know, I'm looking for a new. I mentioned it earlier, but I'm looking for a new PC. Mine's about six years old. I realised when I got back, I've just been traveling for a bit.
Richard Hill [00:15:43]:
Got back and my computer has. Oh, my God, this is so flipping slow. Been using my laptop while I've been traveling and. All right, you know what? So I thought, I'll get some memory and this thing. I thought it's past that. So I went and I thought, I'll, you know, I'll just have a little
John Brolly [00:15:56]:
time, get specific, can't you?
Richard Hill [00:15:58]:
And it was very much this conversational, obviously, piece. Now if the sites that were getting shown in, you know, in, in the LLM that I'm using. Yeah.
John Brolly [00:16:09]:
Without saying there's only a couple, really. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:16:11]:
That's like, there's light to be. But we'll, we'll leave that a mystery for now. But ultimately, you know, if the attributes aren't on the sites or they're not in the feeds or they're not, you know, they're not coming or if you're not getting cited in certain places that the LLMs are drawing their data from,
John Brolly [00:16:26]:
you're not going to come up and. Yeah, and I mean, that's a good point. It just triggered something then is like going back to my olden days in working in agencies, we used to expose so much product data that wasn't used and it was often seen as not needed to be used, not needed to appear on a PDF, not needed to be there as part of the product description. But we're finding now is that actually we're moving away from just keywords and static attributes is actually, you know, bringing these aggregated together.
Richard Hill [00:16:53]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:16:54]:
Forms a response for conversational inputs.
Richard Hill [00:16:56]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:16:57]:
You know, it is, it's a fast, Fascinating, exciting. And who knows where we end up though.
Richard Hill [00:17:01]:
Yeah. But what I do know is that the merchants that sort of explore these, you know, there's like this core. Okay, we've got a great product data, obviously. What does that mean? And what's. What, what's this LLM doing? And what's this, what's this platform? You know, what's Amazon drawing on? What's, what's chat, GPT, what's Claw, Hang on, JPT ads are launched. How does the ads. Where they get in the data? And yeah, it's like a 2%, 3%, 5, whatever stat we want to look at, but give it 12 months, 24 months.
John Brolly [00:17:28]:
And I think if you're, if you're
Richard Hill [00:17:30]:
not doing any of that stuff, you've
John Brolly [00:17:31]:
lost, you'll be left, you'll be left behind.
Richard Hill [00:17:32]:
You are. Because that's the difference between, you know, if you're getting another up or down 10% in your business.
John Brolly [00:17:36]:
And it is scary as well.
Richard Hill [00:17:38]:
It's alive or not alive.
John Brolly [00:17:39]:
So I think, I think that's important, Richard, I think we both said that before. It isn't scary for brands. Don't be worried about it. Know there's enough technology out there to work with.
Richard Hill [00:17:47]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:17:47]:
But I think we get to a point of having, you know, standard structured taxonomies. Yeah. Who's going to win? I'm not going to say it might be Google, but an understanding of product types and where they sit. And now with a number of tools, we have tools that can understand the channel feed, understand where it's missing some data and present options to enrich.
Richard Hill [00:18:07]:
So maybe tell me then, Athos, what's the sort of advantage of a retailer using Athos?
John Brolly [00:18:12]:
Well, I mean, we've come to market as a product discovery platform, a number of technologies through a merger and acquisitions over a number of years, which Enables us to as, as I say, every consumer touch point where a consumer is searching or browsing to purchase a product, Athos can power that. And that's it in a nutshell. You know, that is it in a nutshell.
Richard Hill [00:18:35]:
So what, maybe we've talked about feeds so obviously you've got that sort of ticked off. But let's maybe, maybe give me an, give the listeners an insight.
John Brolly [00:18:42]:
So in terms of on site, so we obviously we, part of what we do is that enrichment piece. We've got inherent search capabilities for on site. So a combination of keyword natural language processing as well. Then you've got merchandising which I touched on, which is used to be seen as a bit of a dinar and having a resurgence because you've got these low level attributes which can be used from a merchandising perspective with performance data bringing in. And then you've got really rich merchandising relevant as well as recommendations, product bundling as well. And yeah, we're in, we're in the Agentix space as well. So we're looking at, you know, develop. We've currently got an Agentix storefront piece that's being evolved and that's, you know, it's going to be fascinating to see where that comes.
Richard Hill [00:19:26]:
So that's like generative discovery.
John Brolly [00:19:28]:
Yeah, generative discovery. So it's like it's an embedded, you know, storefront within a storefront, you know, so to say. And we're, we're talking with a number of technologies and partners about where this can go in the future. So it's very much a work in progress. We've got capabilities now from the off. Well, you know, very much say that's part of Athos, you know, evolution as we move forward, you know, in the product discovery world.
Richard Hill [00:19:48]:
Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it? Genuinely, I think, you know, I've probably never been as excited in, in our, in our world.
John Brolly [00:19:54]:
You know, a lot of this is scary, this change. I mean change is good, change is changing.
Richard Hill [00:19:59]:
I think this is the thing and it is change and that's the all, that's the. We talk about change a lot on the podcast, but ultimately embracing these things. Of course some of these things might come and go, but if you're sort of having a. Trying some of these things to a degree, it's not like all in budget on all this new stuff. Hang on a minute. You know, a lot of the fundamentals remain the same but there is a shift like we've never seen before. The way people Are searching, you know, and buying and you know, that's not going.
John Brolly [00:20:23]:
And impacting operations as well, you know,
Richard Hill [00:20:25]:
you know, of course some of these platforms may, you know, maybe more successful than others and we don't know, you know, sitting here 12 months ago it was chat GPT. Hang on a minute. There's been a real shift this last three or four, the last month in my. I've just come back as you know, from a, you know, an AI conference over in Asia for, for 10 days and big shifts going on in terms of preference and quality of data and
John Brolly [00:20:48]:
you know, and I think it's the rapidity of development now is changing, you know, in developing products, trying to keep up with the shift around SEP and UCP as well and understanding the specification of that.
Richard Hill [00:21:01]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:21:01]:
But from a retailer perspective, because I know we're very much retailer focused, both of us here, retailer brands, is that, don't be scared of it. You know, don't try and do the big digital transformation piece. Look at micro transformations. Yeah. You know, look at your tech stack. Evaluate what you're currently paying. Look to see where you can get improvements.
Richard Hill [00:21:20]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:21:20]:
Talk to specialists.
Richard Hill [00:21:21]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:21:22]:
You know, get, get help. But don't be scared because as long as you start early enough and you're moving the right way, then you know, everyone's gonna win.
Richard Hill [00:21:28]:
Yeah, I think that's great advice. I think, you know, obviously things are changing and so forth. Like it's tech stack, do that audit. See, you know, chat to the. But everyone's in a similar boat where it's a bit. Not. Maybe uncertainty is maybe not the right word, but it's not far off. I.
Richard Hill [00:21:41]:
Understanding the changes, things are moving really, really quickly. But I think it's putting an element of resource, time, budget into the looking at it rather than burying your head and think, well, we know we do it this way and then we've got a good feed guy who does the feeds and. Hang on a minute. What are you doing with the ab. Generative?
John Brolly [00:21:58]:
Yeah, the experimentation, you know, I mean, there's, I mean that's an important point. You know, you, you know, brands, retailers and merchants will have partners. They will, you know, tech partners, agency partners. It's important to own those relationships, push those relationships to make sure you're getting the best out of us.
Richard Hill [00:22:13]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:22:14]:
You know, but, you know, don't be scared asking the questions. Ask, ask for advice. I mean, that's what we're here for. You know, it's, it's.
Richard Hill [00:22:21]:
I think that's the benefit of working with a You know, somebody like yourself, obviously you've got that breadth of, you know, a lot of agencies where that you're dealing with but ultimately then thousands of merchants and that collective sort of experience data set, it's sort of, it's not just right. At least three or four clients are doing this. Hang on a minute, these hundreds of clients, you know, and that's obviously the benefit of working with an agency, working with a partner that's got the sort of breadth of experience.
John Brolly [00:22:44]:
Yeah, I think, yeah. And that's, and that's important, I think, you know, coming from, you know, partnerships. It's important for brands to build these partnerships with their third party agencies and tech providers.
Richard Hill [00:22:56]:
So we've covered quite a bit of ground in like the first 15 minutes. I think like we're, I feel like we're gathering some serious peak too early.
John Brolly [00:23:02]:
Are we Richard?
Richard Hill [00:23:03]:
I'm not sure. I think there's, I think there's a bit left to go.
John Brolly [00:23:05]:
Okay, cool.
Richard Hill [00:23:06]:
So I think you know, data feeds, you know, I think, well data, you know, hygiene and adding those additional attributes and I think understanding what, you know, depending on what you sell, what are some of the attributes, you know, and that's, you know, it depends on the listener but I think, you know, feel free to reach out to me, reach out to John, you know, if you self something that obviously we've not talked about, obviously we've talked about one or two niches there. There's different attributes and different sort of data required for different, different verticals, very different. So I think we've covered that well. But what are some of the other opportunities you're seeing in AI at the moment?
John Brolly [00:23:41]:
Cool. Yeah. So obviously AI is not new. You know, we know that, you know, machine learning we've been utilising for quite some time in the space. I think the generative piece is exciting from an efficiency perspective. You know, number of brands that can maybe do a single lifestyle shot and then generate multiple assets and video. It makes sense, it's efficient, it saves money. Not ideal for the original content creator, you know, they may well be hit.
John Brolly [00:24:11]:
So there's that efficiency piece and I think from an operations perspective the AI tools that you would either build internally, you know, whether you're using, you know, lovable Google, AR Studio, you can build efficient code type. Yeah. Vibe code which, which works internally, you know, but there's a lot of intuitive tech coming out there and it's fast, fast paced, really changing, don't be scared of it. And I think the idea is that we cut it is impacting the industry, but I think realise the opportunity and it's around efficiency and, and will save you time on some of the more mundane tasks that you used to have to do.
Richard Hill [00:24:53]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:24:53]:
And that's through what I do, what you probably have to do as an agency and what a brand might have to do and whether that's generating content.
Richard Hill [00:25:00]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:25:00]:
You know, generating listings.
Richard Hill [00:25:02]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:25:03]:
You know, analysing. Analyzing the behavioral patterns. I mean, that's the, you know, that predictive analysis moves into generative predictions as well and, and then take a chance on inventory planning, merchandising. Yeah, there's a lot to think.
Richard Hill [00:25:18]:
That's a big one, isn't it? I think, you know, it's not obviously our, you know, as an agency, not something we, you know, we. We sort of work with directly, but I think a lot of agencies I see that maybe have a challenge in, you know, when it comes to the end of the year when they're doing their financials and yeah, we've had a good year. Hang on a minute. But there's 300 grand in the corner of the warehouse over there. Oh yeah, but that's always been there or be about in a minute. What's it on the balance sheet at 300 grand, it's only worth about 40k. Yeah, we made 200 grand last year. Well, actually you lost 50k then.
Richard Hill [00:25:48]:
Because that image of control, long.
John Brolly [00:25:52]:
What do you want to call it? Long tail sitting. Is there a different channel we can push this? Is there something around this product that we can dive deeper? Just that real awareness surface here differently, you know, so I think it's impacting. It is changing. There's, you know, I wouldn't say this scaremongering, but it is impacting the industry.
Richard Hill [00:26:11]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:26:11]:
We are seeing moves around merger and acquisitions. Weird. Like roles are changing. I think that, you know, that from a developer's background, they were probably impacted first. But it's around, it's around having an assistant.
Richard Hill [00:26:23]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:26:24]:
You know.
Richard Hill [00:26:24]:
Yes. Yeah, very good point.
John Brolly [00:26:26]:
Yeah, everybody can have an assistant to help them get through the day. On.
Richard Hill [00:26:30]:
I mean, when we sort of brought
John Brolly [00:26:32]:
lovable to the office, if you like.
Richard Hill [00:26:33]:
Not physically, but you know, I was like, guys, have you seen this? This whatever. 18 months ago. And it's all taken over the world, hasn't it now? Almost in a. On a VI coding. I mean, probably by the time this publishes, there'll be another one. But yeah, you know, and then the ability to. Then to build a proof of concept for an idea. So when we go to an ECOM store and we want to build a, a calculator that helps you choose the product for, you know, to, for your camping or whatever.
Richard Hill [00:26:54]:
You know, we've got a lot of camping, outdoor clients. Well, back in the day, you know, we would go to a developer, wait three months to be signed off, 10,000 quid in two months. Now we can build a proof of concept in an afternoon to a point. I mean, that's an extreme example and there's a bit more to it than that. But, but ultimately, you know, the speed to be able to test stuff, you know, and then. Okay, then there's, you know, the whole discussion around security and, you know, the validity of the code and so forth and you know, what we're doing with that. I'll be really putting it on the site. Well, there's, there's a, all different sort
John Brolly [00:27:24]:
of, as long as you got the right people in place looking after those
Richard Hill [00:27:27]:
elements, security type stuff. But obviously ultimately you can prove, you can test ideas very, very quickly, very, very cheaply, which is very exciting. You know, all. I'd say all of our clients have now got various tools on their sites. Fast forward 18 months or so. You know, all of our SEO account managers are pretty okay. More than o, you know, creating tools as part of our, you know, where
John Brolly [00:27:48]:
it should be part of the offer.
Richard Hill [00:27:49]:
Whereas a year ago we wanted it to be part of the offer, but it's 10 grand. Yeah. Whereas now, you know, we can build tools very, very quickly. You know, there's, there's a lot of caveats to that because obviously there's security, I'm talking about more so what we do and don't do to websites and so forth. But ultimately, you know, and then that goes through. You know, you touched on video and, and product, you know, inventory, product
John Brolly [00:28:12]:
videos and so forth.
Richard Hill [00:28:14]:
You know, using, you know, choose your tool or your weapon of choice.
John Brolly [00:28:18]:
You've got, you've got like take a single shot, generate a video, do the reverse, take a video, generate a lot of static images.
Richard Hill [00:28:25]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:28:25]:
Generate some lifestyle images, generate, you know, you know, product shot images, choose a background. Yeah, the tools are out there. And I think the prototyping and POC is a really good point because, you know, in one way what you say, Richard, is that something you used to maybe charge 10k, you can't do that now, but you've got a more efficient tool to deliver proof of concept. Not okay. It's not right. We tweak it. Yeah, tweak it.
Richard Hill [00:28:51]:
We get to the third concept keyword.
John Brolly [00:28:53]:
Exactly. You know, but it's the ability to. To spin up these pocs knowing it's a poc.
Richard Hill [00:29:00]:
Yep.
John Brolly [00:29:00]:
But getting the appetite for sign off.
Richard Hill [00:29:02]:
Yeah. Similar with other content, isn't it? You know, if you were going to create. Right, we need to create an 8,000word guide about XYZ. Well that's four people full time for a month. Yeah. Or you know, there's an element now of. All right, well we can use this down the other and it's one person full time for two weeks or.
John Brolly [00:29:18]:
And that. Interesting. I've got a question for you first. All right. Is that allowed?
Richard Hill [00:29:22]:
Well, we might. We might. Out.
John Brolly [00:29:25]:
So with that, is that. Do you think the skill set moves from. You know, you mentioned Vibe code and you've got Vibe code in prompt engineering. Prompting. But ultimately this is communication, isn't it? We're going inside an ability to understand, to feed structured language.
Richard Hill [00:29:42]:
I think the ability scribe to break down something to understand the wider context of what you're trying to do to then explain it to whatever. LLM or software is a big skill. Yeah. I think that's where actually a lot of business owners have got that skill because they're quite often very good at explaining and communicating. You know, successful business people are successful because they're good communicators in my. In my eyes and good with people and. And know, nurturing people and that's usually communication. So therefore they should be pretty good at.
John Brolly [00:30:15]:
Should be transferable.
Richard Hill [00:30:16]:
Discussing with an LLM about we wanted to do this and so I think the ability to. To describe to. But obviously you need an understanding of how the different LLMs work and what their preferences are and the sort of breakdown of an ideal sort of way to. To approach. Approach. Yeah, yeah, but I think, yeah, having that ability to communicate very, very well. Yeah, it's going to really help you. It does really.
Richard Hill [00:30:39]:
You know, I see it here, you
John Brolly [00:30:40]:
know and I think that give a bas.
Richard Hill [00:30:41]:
If you give a basic prompt, you know, the most basic form. If you give a basic prompt or an LLM you're going to get something average by. And you go, oh, touch your rubbish. Well, hang on, you gave it four words. Perseverance, you know, detail and the, you know, half a dozen specific. Yeah, I mean that's.
John Brolly [00:30:56]:
And test. I think you mentioned experimentation. It's like, you know, where we're going back to the brand and the brand sentiment and the brand entity and. And you know, and it's the brand's color is. Is try things experiment, you know, refresh and it. And. And that's another piece is, you know, we're talking about efficiency, is that some of the tool sets available now allows for that regeneration, that refresh piece.
Richard Hill [00:31:18]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:31:18]:
You know, because we're getting into the realms of, you know, real time indexing as well as static indexes. So it's, it's.
Richard Hill [00:31:24]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:31:24]:
Key. It's a good time.
Richard Hill [00:31:25]:
It's ever so exciting, I think, you know, like I said, I've come back from this conference and I'm. I'm absolutely, genuinely wired for the next sort of three, six months. But there's the opportunity for ecom.
John Brolly [00:31:35]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:31:36]:
Just, you know, there's sort of. It's nice to. There's obviously stuff happening, you know, with, with LLMs and the different platforms, embracing all the tech and so forth and you.
John Brolly [00:31:44]:
But it falls naturally as an industry. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:31:47]:
It's an opp. I think merchants have got to see it as an opportunity because most people bury their head, you know. Oh, well, I'm not sure. But nobody uses GPT and. Hang on a minute, you know, or no, you know. Yeah. So it's just having that inquisitiveness to be trialing. I mean, this is really something I said probably 12 months ago.
John Brolly [00:32:03]:
But even more so, it's just. Don't be scared. Yeah, don't be scared. Dive in, you know, allocate some time to do your research. I think research is key as well, you know, and. And if unsure, reach out to partners.
Richard Hill [00:32:16]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:32:17]:
You know, plenty of experts out in our industry.
Richard Hill [00:32:19]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:32:19]:
You know.
Richard Hill [00:32:20]:
Yeah. I think we've had half of them on the podcast.
John Brolly [00:32:22]:
Good.
Richard Hill [00:32:23]:
Other half are queuing up. No. So obviously in your tool set. Yeah. It's quite a lot of. Quite a lot of sort of tools there. You know, if. If it's quite a difficult question, don't
John Brolly [00:32:35]:
ask me to say for a brand and retailer were there to pick one. What.
Richard Hill [00:32:39]:
So if I was a. If I was a retailer. Yeah. Selling lots of parts. 50, 000 SKUs.
John Brolly [00:32:46]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:32:46]:
Doing 30 million quid a year, which is a lot of our clients is in that sort of. Very much our sort of wheelhouse. Yeah. What are one or two tools that you think that really couldn't live without? I know that's quite tricky because there's so many. Well, if you don't know this and we don't know that, but we've got a big SKU count.
John Brolly [00:33:03]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:33:03]:
We're doing, you know, reasonable good mid market, 30 million pound turnover, you know, tens of thousands of orders a month coming through, two or three hundred a month.
John Brolly [00:33:11]:
The essential average order essentials. I think, I think Richard will be like the, the data piece from that data we talked about and then on site search and merchandising. So merchandising and segmentation, that's a lot of skus, isn't it?
Richard Hill [00:33:27]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:33:27]:
Within a wide gamut of skus, you understand your customer. Yeah. You understand your broken down segmentation.
Richard Hill [00:33:37]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:33:38]:
And then go lower level so you go into personalisation so you know why they're buying particular SKUs.
Richard Hill [00:33:43]:
And maybe talk to me a bit more about what does around personalisation.
John Brolly [00:33:46]:
So we, we've got recommendation and personalisation engine. We can take transaction or historical data. Once recognised consumers on site present relevant recommendations around that. And again different contextual groupings that we can do that could be in product types. We can do that on a one to one, but we can also do it on a one to many in a segmentation piece as well. And that segmentation piece could come from your marketing automation tool, which there are many and as well as that one to one which would come directly from your Ecom platform.
Richard Hill [00:34:17]:
That was easy enough.
John Brolly [00:34:18]:
Yeah, it was easy enough. Yeah. I thought you did everything.
Richard Hill [00:34:20]:
I thought you're gonna have a tough moment there, but no brillian. So I think, you know, we've covered a lot of ground there and I'm, you know, as I've said a couple of times, very, I'm very, I can see you are very excited for what we're in at the moment. You know, really, really exciting time in Ecom. I think it's one of the most exciting times that I've encountered with the sort of opportunity for econ brands to sort of embrace some of the new stuff that's here and come in. But here, you know, here. And that's going to be different between success and failure really. I, I see. Rather than, oh yeah, we'll just do this, we want to do SEO this way and we're run our product feed that way.
Richard Hill [00:34:55]:
I mean, you know, whoa, hang on a minute. There's a lot of new stuff you can do, you know, you know, and it might be the 5, 10, 20% but normally if you've got another 10, you're doing very, very well, aren't you? That's all you need is that little, that little bit to add on to the bottom line sort of thing. So I think, you know, very exciting time. I'm very excited for our clients and so forth. But over the Next sort of 12 months, what are you sort of most excited for?
John Brolly [00:35:17]:
You know, if you're excited or scared, you decide. I think excited. I think, I think there's a rapidity of tech being developed and that's in that generative piece as well as understanding the shifts and changes within ACP and UCP and ensuring that I think a number of tech companies ISVs there might be blends and mergers and even extending offerings.
Richard Hill [00:35:48]:
So watching where that goes, understanding what's going to be the.
John Brolly [00:35:51]:
So rather than having 10 tools to do 10 different things, it might be two or three tools.
Richard Hill [00:35:56]:
Source of.
John Brolly [00:35:57]:
Yeah, yeah and, and that's why you know we're, we, we specialise in product discovery. But yeah, there'll be a blend. I think from an agency perspective there'll be a lot of change. I think we'll start to see new agencies with a few different specialisms. Might be a GAO answer engine optimisation as well but you know, definitely a lot of tech around GEO and, and it is still early days, you know, I mean we're talking about, you know, chat GPT and transactional in chat GPT and what's available with, with you know, OpenAI Shopify in America currently, you know, nearly here. You know what that date is? I don't know but it's nearly here. Yeah and that's going to be interesting to see whether it's going to work. There's a lot of guesswork around whether that agentic channel is going to be as important as some of the traditional search engines such as Google and Bing.
Richard Hill [00:36:45]:
But you've got to have a bit of it, haven't you?
John Brolly [00:36:47]:
You have to be there because you, because the numbers are already showing that
Richard Hill [00:36:50]:
the virus are like, you know, I remember you said 2011 I was 2009. Just slightly, I think I've obviously just slightly, slightly older than you, believe it or not. And thank you.
John Brolly [00:37:02]:
And I'll tell you, shopping was free,
Richard Hill [00:37:05]:
you know and it was fruit was it? It was free, yeah. It was called Frugal and everyone's like oh brilliant, get on page one in an hour and you could because you just put loads of feature there. You're number one, two, three, whatever. Not many people doing it but. And more people started doing it and then fast forward a month or whatever it's Google shopping or it was called Google something. I can't remember now. It wasn't shopping but it was the equivalent of Google. Oh my God, everyone's going crazy.
Richard Hill [00:37:28]:
You got a pace of list on Google now. So obviously most people abandoned it. I'm not paying to go on Google. And then we didn't and we had the best time ever because yeah, we're paying but we're outranking all the other people because they're not there because well the, they can't go on frugal anymore. It went paid and this is where now like it's a bit of reboot. Well, no one's going to buy off
John Brolly [00:37:48]:
chat but it has to be monetised. Oh they're not.
Richard Hill [00:37:51]:
You know, I've got the email a couple of days. Well as this goes live a few weeks ago now, you know, ChatGPT ads
John Brolly [00:37:56]:
and so forth, but we know it has to be monetised. Yeah, to a point. And there may, there may be a certain amount. I mean there's a raft. Amount of processing capabilities going on and the development in the brand pay for
Richard Hill [00:38:06]:
that somehow, haven't they?
John Brolly [00:38:07]:
It has to. Yeah. There has to be a transaction fee associated somewhere. Somewhere, you know there is.
Richard Hill [00:38:12]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:38:12]:
But like going back to where I've got, I've got no idea where it's going, you know and, and a couple of times if I time I'm speaking at an event, I'll say we're gonna, Are we gonna be in the realms of the black mirror phase? You know, where I'm, my agent is on my mirror and I wake up in the morning, it'll be able to read my facial expression or in the glasses, you know, will it be able to understand that? You know, there'll be, there'll be tools within your, you know, the Iot things may come back to life.
Richard Hill [00:38:39]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:38:40]:
So you need some milk just off it goes in orders.
Richard Hill [00:38:42]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:38:42]:
And you're looking a bit haggard today. You need a bit of. Yeah, need a bit of moisturiser and
Richard Hill [00:38:46]:
a bit of your chair marks on the doorstep tomorrow.
John Brolly [00:38:49]:
And, and so where, where it goes,
Richard Hill [00:38:51]:
the holidays, books, imagine.
John Brolly [00:38:52]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:38:53]:
Get a bit tired.
John Brolly [00:38:53]:
Oh, but he's going back to that, that agent there is should always be an assistant that you're in control of. You know, we're not at that black mirror point yet where. Yeah, where the machines are in control. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:39:05]:
So I guess the question to the listeners now, or leave them with his thought is, you know, what agents are you building? What agents have you got control of? And if the answer is none, then what. Where are you going to start? You know, have a chat with John, have a chat with the team here
John Brolly [00:39:18]:
and let's, and as I said, don't be scared. Let's take it back to. I think we, we mentioned foundational and you know, as we both said, the product data Brand data, you know, FAQs, delivery information, the customer service data, or get all the foundational pieces. Right. Yeah, get it rich.
Richard Hill [00:39:37]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:39:37]:
Get it correct.
Richard Hill [00:39:38]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:39:39]:
And then you're in good stead for whatever is going to come at us in the industry, you know. And I know, you know, Soothsayer. I've got ideas, but, you know.
Richard Hill [00:39:49]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:39:49]:
Who knows?
Richard Hill [00:39:50]:
Well, we'll see, won't we? 12 months. We'll get you back on.
John Brolly [00:39:52]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:39:52]:
Hopefully we've still got a job.
John Brolly [00:39:53]:
I'll have a beer down here. Yeah, well, we might. If we don't, we'll still do it, you know.
Richard Hill [00:39:57]:
Well, thanks for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. I like to finish every episode.
John Brolly [00:40:01]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:40:02]:
With a book recommendation.
John Brolly [00:40:04]:
I do, I do, yeah. It's a hard, hard one to recommend a book, but, like, with. I'm sort of going down. One of my favorite authors, which is quite a dystopian called Michael Marshall Smith, wrote a book called Only Forward. I think it was 94. Showing my age, might be, but it inspired me to create my. My band name. But it very much dystopian, set in a future.
John Brolly [00:40:30]:
It's got nods to Ballard in there. And, you know, you look at Black Mirror and we're talking about AI, and we are in a bit of a crazy time. But, like, Only Four was beautiful escapism. Really beautifully written.
Richard Hill [00:40:45]:
Wow.
John Brolly [00:40:45]:
Very colorful.
Richard Hill [00:40:46]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:40:47]:
Great imagination. I think it was his best book. So anybody's a fan, like Paula Stair, you know, Ballard. I recommend it, you know.
Richard Hill [00:40:54]:
Brilliant.
John Brolly [00:40:55]:
I'll have to check that out. I want to hear the name of the band, but, you know, ask for another conversation so we could talk about
Richard Hill [00:40:59]:
bands and I'm sure we'll get into guitars and who's the best guitarist of all time.
John Brolly [00:41:04]:
God, that's a question. Me. No, it wasn't Prince. Good. I saw. Yeah, I did see. I saw the 1999 coaster and. Yeah.
John Brolly [00:41:13]:
I mean, he was.
Richard Hill [00:41:14]:
Yeah, we're quite a fan here.
John Brolly [00:41:15]:
He was phenomenal.
Richard Hill [00:41:16]:
And it's in my office more.
John Brolly [00:41:18]:
He was phenomenal.
Richard Hill [00:41:19]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:41:20]:
And then, I mean, to be honest, like, Hendrix could play guitar. Yeah, a bit.
Richard Hill [00:41:24]:
Since somebody asked Hendrix what's it like being the best guitarist in the world? And he said, you better ask Prince.
John Brolly [00:41:30]:
And then, you know. You know, I'm gonna say Vinnie Riley.
Richard Hill [00:41:33]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:41:34]:
The Ritty column.
Richard Hill [00:41:35]:
Yeah.
John Brolly [00:41:35]:
Which is a total. You know, you've got Hendrix one side and you've got Vinnie at the other.
Richard Hill [00:41:39]:
Brilliant.
John Brolly [00:41:40]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:41:40]:
Thanks for coming on the show, John. It's been not a problem. An absolute pleasure.
John Brolly [00:41:43]:
Absolute blast.
Richard Hill [00:41:44]:
For those who want to find out more about yourself, more about Athos, what's the best way to do that?
John Brolly [00:41:47]:
You can find me on LinkedIn, just John Brolley and Athos, and then just reach out to me. And yeah, I'm more than happy to field any questions about anything related to Wacom.
Richard Hill [00:41:58]:
Thanks, John.
John Brolly [00:41:58]:
Thanks for having me.
Richard Hill [00:41:59]:
Richard, thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or Follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next one.
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