Podcast Overview
In Episode 232 of the eCom@One podcast we’re focusing on the practical integration of sustainability into the eCommerce checkout experience. The discussion explored how brands can empower customers to support meaningful environmental projects without creating friction in the buying journey.
One concept discussed was the significant impact of small, simple actions at the point of purchase, offering both a boost to customer advocacy and an edge in brand loyalty. Several points were raised, including the commercial viability of embedding sustainability practices, the myth that consumers don’t care about climate action and the evolving expectations surrounding ethical business practices.
A key theme that emerged was the importance of starting with manageable steps to build a foundation for genuine, long-term positive impact. Whether you’re an eCommerce startup or an established brand, this episode provides insightful inspiration and actionable strategies for making sustainability a core part of business growth.
Time Stamps:
00:00 Journey to sustainability focus
03:16 Discovering sustainability in business
09:27 Trying new sustainable brands
12:24 Making the Checkout Experience Joyful
13:44 Transparent charity donations
19:51 Brand sustainability and market challenges
20:40 Working with B Corp businesses
25:45 Helping brands understand sustainability
30:01 Discussing B Corp certification process
31:50 Shift to value-added products
37:38 Working with merchant clients
38:33 Future of sustainability in brands
41:45 John Sills’ consumer insights blog
Oli Cook [00:00:00]:
It is an incredibly important moment in any customer journey. And if you can nail it, you get more customers, you get more advocacy.
Richard Hill [00:00:06]:
It's a great, great model. You know, I'm really interested in how it all works. And I'm sure the listeners are.
Oli Cook [00:00:11]:
I can make you feel brilliant about yourself and the brand in that final moment to make you super happy and go, actually, you know, I love this brand.
Richard Hill [00:00:21]:
You know, how has that conversation shifted inside eCommerce brands?
Oli Cook [00:00:25]:
We've gotta make sure this is commercially viable to you.
Richard Hill [00:00:27]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:00:28]:
Otherwise, yeah, it's just reality. It's in the real world. Unless it makes me money, it's very hard for me to do it.
Richard Hill [00:00:34]:
But I guess people are not sure maybe what to do.
Oli Cook [00:00:38]:
I think people think it's tricky. It's because there's so many aspects to it. We have a company motto, which I think I'd apply to this, um, which is start by starting.
Richard Hill [00:00:53]:
Welcome back to the eCom@One podcast. Now today I'm joined by Ollie Cook from Echo, and we're talking about sustainability in e-commerce, but in a really, really practical way. Now in this episode, Ollie shares how brands can bring sustainability into the checkout experience, give customers the chance to support meaningful projects, and do it without adding friction to the buying journey. Very, very interesting topic. Very, very good podcast episode. We also get into why customers do care about sustainability and why it doesn't have to be complicated, and how small actions can help build stronger loyalty, better brand connection, and a more meaningful customer experience. So if you're an e-commerce brand trying to work out where sustainability fits in your growth strategy, this episode is well and truly worth a listen. Now do me one quick favor, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening so you never miss an episode.
Richard Hill [00:01:45]:
And now let's dive in. Hey, Ollie, how we doing?
Oli Cook [00:01:50]:
Yeah, good, thanks. How are you?
Richard Hill [00:01:52]:
I'm very well. Looks very, just very, very sunny where you are. It is.
Oli Cook [00:01:55]:
It's not a million degrees, which is a positive, but it's, uh, it's, uh, and you can now see my dog. There you go. My dog's in the background walking through.
Richard Hill [00:02:01]:
Hey, what's the dog called?
Oli Cook [00:02:03]:
Seren, uh, which is Welsh for star. Uh, my wife, my wife is Welsh and we've got 2 kids and their kids aren't Welsh names, but we agreed that the dog can have a Welsh name. So there you go.
Richard Hill [00:02:15]:
Oh, nice. Well, I'm sure Seren's going to make a few appearances throughout the episode.
Oli Cook [00:02:19]:
She always does.
Richard Hill [00:02:20]:
Right. Well, I'm really looking forward to this. Lots of good stuff to get into. So I think let's crack on. So I know you spent many, many years at a lot of the big brands, big banks that a lot of people listening will recognise, HSBC, Metro, and so forth, you know, watching a lot of change, a lot of investment in different financial products. And obviously sustainability is maybe back many, many years ago, possibly sat in a brochure and was just a bit of a, yep, tick box, there we go, it's in the brochure. But obviously now, from your perspective, it's very much front and center of your business. What was the sort of moment for you where you were like, obviously in this maybe different world, slightly different, very different worlds you're in now, But you sort of, it sort of clicked and thought, you know what, let's see where we can, what we can do here.
Oli Cook [00:03:16]:
Yeah, it's kind of, if I'm honest, there was no, this is it, right, let's go. It was more of an evolution of learning more and more about businesses, learning more and more about organisations and kind of slowly migrating into, there's a huge, huge opportunity here. I guess my general view of of people and sustainability is, to be honest, most people are good. They want to do good. And they're in organisations that may not be doing the best thing for them, but actually most people are really good. And when it came to banking, financial services, payments, my realisation was most organisations are doing an element of things to sort their house out. And if you look in banking or look in payments, for example, lots of people, you know, we've got a 100-person office, we use renewable energy, we've got a little thing at the bottom of my email footer saying print less and all this stuff. All that is good, right? All of that is good.
Oli Cook [00:04:14]:
They've got some bins somewhere. No one knows what goes in what bin, so everyone kind of just throws it into the general waste. Again, let's talk about consumer behavior. Unless you make it clear for me, I get confused, I get frustrated. I want to do something good here. I don't really know what. All the organisations were spending all their money to sort their house out, get it in the brochure, et cetera, et cetera. But what you realise is the opportunity's actually the consumers that they serve and the consumers that all of us in, you know, commerce or in banking or payments, we serve millions and billions of consumers around the world.
Oli Cook [00:04:49]:
Actually, if we can help them do more, and it helped them engage in this topic because they all want to anyway. And we can come on to the data that proves that.
Richard Hill [00:04:57]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:04:58]:
The opportunity is so much bigger. The scale of change is so much bigger. So let's go and tackle that. And ECHO was built on the kind of the hypothesis and the thesis of there are billions of consumers tapping their card, buying 10, 20 things a day. Let's try and get to them. Let's try and help them do what they really, really want to do from a human level, like from a I actually really want to do good in the world because I'm a good human being. Yeah, let's try and do that. So Echo is here to facilitate that.
Oli Cook [00:05:25]:
And it, it wasn't just me. I'm one of Fearful founders, and we all came together kind of in various places going, we can solve this problem, we can solve this problem. So Echo built from there.
Richard Hill [00:05:37]:
I, I really resonate. I think, you know, I think generally most people do, you know, whether that's, um, you know, brand, merchant, consumer. Yeah, they want to do the right thing and try to support, but maybe just not sure how they can, you know, some of the obvious things, like you said, you know, but even then, it's maybe a bit of a tick box exercise. But what really can we do more, a bit more consistently? And I think, yeah, it's an interesting one. But yeah, it's a great, great model. You know, I'm really interested in how it all works, and I'm sure the listeners are. So we'll have a look at that. But before we do, I think You know, there's maybe a few myths out there, you know, that maybe, I mean, you sort of alluded to it and we've alluded to it, but that consumers don't actually care about sustainability.
Richard Hill [00:06:21]:
It's far too complicated, it's expensive, you know, but, you know, especially for maybe an e-commerce brand that is trying to focus on their own, you know, growth, you know, and they think, oh, sustainability, you know, and it's a tricky one, you know. What would you say to that?
Oli Cook [00:06:36]:
It can be tricky. I think, yeah, I think, I think people think it's tricky. It's because there's so many aspects to it. There's not a silver bullet going, this is the one answer to sustainability. That isn't true. So it is a tricky subject. If it wasn't tricky, you would have solved it as a society. So I think it's kind of acknowledging that this can be a tricky thing from a consumer point of view.
Oli Cook [00:06:59]:
I guess the best rationale or the best kind of evidence to this is the biggest survey ever done in this space was done about a year ago.
Richard Hill [00:07:06]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:07:07]:
And it showed that 89% of consumers want to do more on climate action, but they believe that only 43% of their peers do, which is interesting because that kind of shows this spiral of silence of I care, but I'm not necessarily sure you care. But you're saying you care and you're not necessarily sure. Yeah, I care. Which is just this interesting psychology to it, but it shows that consumers are there and they want to do more. So I think that That should kind of— that myth should be completely eradicated. There are people who don't care and don't want to do it, but those voices shouldn't stop the vast majority of us who are leaning in. So again, it's kind of acknowledging there are people who don't necessarily believe climate change is real. That's fine.
Oli Cook [00:07:52]:
But there are a majority, majority, 89% do and want to do something about it.
Richard Hill [00:07:56]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:07:57]:
Then you get onto the, the cost element. And I think the cost element for us This goes back to when we were building the business. It's actually twofold. One is it's a consumer problem and the other, it's a business problem. So I have to grow my revenue. I've got a cost challenge. Every business everywhere. I think I've just said 2 lines that are absolutely discussed in every executive committee everywhere, right? That's just, that's just life.
Oli Cook [00:08:20]:
When we started to build a business, we knew we had to solve that problem. We have to show people that you can do this in a commercially viable way for a business, because that kind of gets over that initial barrier of, I know consumers want it, but it costs me money. Well, actually, no, no, no, no. You can have a solution here, one solution of many, but one solution that is entirely free can actually generate you revenue. Okay. That solves that. Then you come to consumer point of view. How do you solve this thing around consumers and their price? And what we've learned is there is definitely price elasticity there.
Oli Cook [00:08:53]:
Consumers are willing to pay a little bit more if it's where I am.
Richard Hill [00:08:56]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:08:56]:
If it's where I am, am I willing to go hugely out my way to go and spend another 50% more to go and do something? Vast majority of people, no. Some, yes. Vast majority, no. So you've got to have a solution that is where the consumer is, that aligns their values, that makes me money, or at least doesn't lose me money as a business. And from a consumer point of view, adds a little bit on, but not so much that changes my behavior at all in terms of kind of my engaging with a brand. I think that's where we come in best.
Richard Hill [00:09:27]:
Yeah, I think, you know, as a consumer, you maybe discovered this new brand and, you know, you've got your usual go-to brands in this thing that you're buying. You know, I've got to think of an item. We won't think of an item, but you found this new brand and, you know, if it's very clear that, you know, they're very much, you know, sustainability runs through their veins in a genuine, genuine way, And knowing that actually this new brand I've discovered, you know, they've got some great products, they, you know, it's a beautiful, you know, brand story and, and, and this, you know, it's just everything stacking up. But you're obviously quite just that smidge, smidge more likely to try this new brand if, you know, they are, you know, on board with, you know, the sustainability side, you know, investing, you know, contributing, giving back and so forth. So it's a, I think it's, yeah, as we'll come to, I think it's—
Oli Cook [00:10:23]:
Yeah, it's an edge. And also we found it with employees as well, people in your team. I can see in the background B Corp, right? You're a B Corp organisation. But I want to work with a business that shares my values. I want to buy off a business that shares my values. Now, if someone's got to offer me 100% more salary, okay, different conversation. But if it's a like for like, people want to be in brands that that they feel good for and I want to relate to them. Yeah, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:10:49]:
So I think we're in agreement, you know, it's, you know, it's a great, great thing for brands to be looking at and it's a lot more than, you know, I think a lot of brands maybe, you know, doing a few things, you know, they're talking about this, that and the other on their About Us page and, you know, depending on what they're selling, you know, there's a few bits and bobs but, you know, what we're talking about with you guys and your and eco is very much sort of sustainability living on the checkout and living in the checkout. So I think it'd be good to sort of step through how that all works. It's very intriguing. I think a lot of our listeners will be very keen to understand how it actually works.
Oli Cook [00:11:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the best way to show it is through a consumer journey, right? This is a customer experience. You are on a site, I'm on your merchant site, on your retailer site, and you are, you bought your products and you're about to go through the basket or the checkout journey to, to actually convert and buy the product. That's where our product shows. So native in the experience. So you build it into your Shopify experience or whatever experience you may have on a commerce site.
Oli Cook [00:11:57]:
And a widget pops up and says, did you know the environmental footprint of a purchase like this is broadly X? Would you like to add on expense to directly compensate for that by funding a local project that is meaningful to you as a retailer and meaningful to you as a consumer, or round up and fund wildlife conservation in Africa because you're buying something for kids and kids love lions. And actually, I've saved a— I've contributed to saving a lion because I bought this purchase.
Richard Hill [00:12:24]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:12:24]:
It's all in that, that moment there where the magic happens for us. There's lots of elements to it, but for us, And the way to think about it is, is that peak-end moment, which I'm sure you know from the consumer psychology point of view, is I can make you feel brilliant about yourself and the brand in that final moment to make you super happy and go, actually, you know what, I love this brand. I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna shop at this brand over brand— what we said earlier, brand A versus brand B. All in that moment, all built into that experience. And It's an incredible space, right? Because you've actually got people's eyeballs. They're really focused on that moment because they've got to be actually choosing the final bit of the product or the final checkout process. And it's a moment that's kind of invisible and you get through it and it's pretty boring. But actually, if I can make you feel good in that moment and I can therefore increase your conversion and you come out and go peak end, brilliant.
Oli Cook [00:13:20]:
That's kind of where we sit. And I could talk about peak end moment. I'm sure you've—
Richard Hill [00:13:24]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:13:24]:
I've had other people on the podcast talking about that moment. It is a— it is an incredibly important moment in any customer journey. And if you can nail it, you get more customers, you get more advocacy. You've got to nail it. In the same way, when you leave an Uber driver, be very happy when you leave. You get a better rating. Yeah, always say thank you, always nice little comments. You get a better rating.
Richard Hill [00:13:44]:
Isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it? So we're— I think it's a bit— it's not the same, but it's similar to, you know, you've gone into a you know, you've gone to your restaurant of choice, you've had an amazing experience, and then, you know, you're, you know, on some of the terminals, you've got an option to, you know, donate something or, you know, in shops and so forth. Obviously, that you don't necessarily know exactly where that's going in some of those instances, but what we're saying here is it's very clear, right? We're working with this specific charity or we're, you know, this particular project in our city or this particular school that we're supporting and so forth. So it becomes quite a personal, a lot more personal, a lot more real, a lot more, oh, do you know what, I love, I love that sort of thing. And that's, yeah, most people, within reason, like you say, it's just a, it's not like a massive commitment, it's just like I say, it could just be a rounding up, but a rounding up over thousands of transactions obviously is a, can lead to a considerable contribution donation to a, to a great cause.
Oli Cook [00:14:48]:
Yeah, exactly. And if you don't want to relate to it because the way we've built the product, you don't have to click, you just scroll past. So it's in no way a barrier. Again, when you're building a business like this, you need to be careful of checkout conversion, etc., etc., more clicks. We all know that the implication of more clicks, there's no more clicks. If you don't engage, don't engage, scroll straight past by and away you go. Yeah, but the majority of people engage. If they don't engage, they'll like the fact that you have.
Richard Hill [00:15:14]:
Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I'm on board. I am 100%.
Oli Cook [00:15:18]:
You've gone advocate.
Richard Hill [00:15:19]:
I'm like, yes, do you know what? This is a lovely thing to do, you know, it's ticking a lot of boxes, not boxes, but it's really just like, you know, that's just great, that is just great. Obviously, we're supporting local, national causes and, you know, no doubt as the brand, you know, you're obviously choosing who those are. So it's something that's close to, you know, close to the founders and something that you're genuinely, genuinely interested in. But then I guess, you know, okay, that transaction is then been and gone, but obviously we've had some support in however many percentage of cases for those courses. But what I'm interested in is, okay, so we've started sort of gathering that sort of sustainable data at the transaction level. So what other maybe commercial marketing opportunities may be available to you that maybe weren't if you weren't doing this? Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:16:11]:
So again, how do we build businesses, help them grow? That's a big part. We are a commercial enterprise trying to help people grow their business by making the world a better place. Like, we think a lot about it. And through our solution, you have a message to go back to your consumers, whether they interacted or not, about what you as a brand have done and facilitated. So let's say you've rolled Echo out for a year. Your consumers have donated, let's say, £1 million to impact over X period of time. You can then go to your consumers and go, this is what we as a collective, as people who have engaged with my brand, it's what we have done. And by the way, this is the projects that it's supported, and this is the impact of those projects in your local community.
Oli Cook [00:16:58]:
That's kind of a brilliant marketing message. You can go back to consumers and go, this is what we have done. Now, me as a consumer has done something. Then there's also a message to go back to me, Ollie Cook, and go, this is what you've done this year. This is the impact you have. And you can guarantee that as a customer, when I've got a choice of shop A or B, the one who said all this good stuff that makes me feel great, because you know I'll engage in it because you've proven that. Yeah, the data. Oh, we can tell you which ones have, which ones haven't, etc., etc.
Oli Cook [00:17:28]:
I know where I'm coming back. And yeah, what we're trying to do is help brands move away from future promises of we kind of plan for net zero by, you know, the famous line, net zero by 20 never, and commitments for all these kind of things. Actually, I'll tell you exactly what we've done, the exact amount of money and the exact impact it's had in that location.
Richard Hill [00:17:48]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:17:48]:
Yeah. Let's talk about that. It's fact. And therefore you as a brand are extremely protected because we're talking about facts of things that have happened, not future promises of things that we don't really know how we're going to do in the first place. This is done. And it's our job to do all that for you, right? We'll facilitate that, we'll make that happen, all that. That's our job. We'll give all that information to you.
Oli Cook [00:18:08]:
You then serve it up.
Richard Hill [00:18:09]:
They're getting sort of exact numbers in effect around the business as a whole, and then you're as a consumer to that brand's impact.
Oli Cook [00:18:18]:
Yeah, you can get that. It depends. You need a bit of engagement there. Just again, transparently, it depends on how people deploy it. There are different ways. If you want to consumer level, we can do that. But as a brand, you can have a live ticker on your website that keeps going up every day, which is really interesting. Or you can have a live feed on your social media going, this month, this is what we've done, this is the impact we've had, just to continue.
Richard Hill [00:18:37]:
So in terms of that loyalty then is where we're sort of, you know, obviously we're driving at here is people coming back, which is, you know, one of the keys to the kingdom of a successful e-com brand when we get down to it, you know, the acquisition retention balance. costs, et cetera, et cetera. We've done about 120 podcasts on that one.
Oli Cook [00:18:57]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:18:59]:
But that's, so this sort of retention piece, especially, you know, I think these brands, like independent brands, obviously all brands, but, you know, trying to get this retention is the key lever for success quite often.
Oli Cook [00:19:14]:
Yeah, absolutely. And we've got to be honest, right? 95% of that is because the product they make. Right? The product they make or the product they sell. But the little bit of edge, everyone's after that marginal gains. And you can get that, you can get that in a way that is commercially viable, that is brilliant, and et cetera, et cetera. Majority, you have to have a good product, et cetera, on the top of it. Otherwise people won't come back. And we all know that.
Oli Cook [00:19:36]:
I can say whatever I want about consumers engaging in sustainability, but if your product doesn't meet up, it doesn't meet up.
Richard Hill [00:19:42]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:19:43]:
But this is the bit that can give you that edge that keeps people that little bit more So it's given him that, you know, it's every industry is very crowded, isn't it?
Richard Hill [00:19:51]:
In reality of, you know, it doesn't matter where we go with writers talk about, you know, fashion, outdoor, automotive, they're very, very crowded in every market, you know, costs, acquisition, retention, you know, different discussion of challenges there. So just being sort of genuinely, you know, genuine about your sort of sustainability actions that you're making as a brand and investing in that, you know, in a genuine, genuine way and sort of acting on that, you know, is making you as a brand more memorable, more sticky. You know, it's a real, I guess more and more people are doing it, which we'll come to, so, which is great, you know, great. So then it's like, is there like a, well, we'll come to that actually, but I think it's—
Oli Cook [00:20:40]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:20:40]:
Trying to balance, obviously you've got to do it for the right reason, but at the same respect, you know, we are running or brands are running a commercial business, but what a great business to run where you're actually genuinely, genuinely, you know, doing great kind, you know, investing in different projects and so forth. So they're great businesses to run. We've had, you know, we've had a lot of, you know, obviously B Corp, for example, businesses. We love working with B Corps because they're just the way they think about things. The way that they treat their team, the way that they work with us in the nice way and the way they ultimately think, you know, nice is a bit of a nice word, but in reality, they're just good people to work with. If you're attracting those people to your business, you know, what a great business to own.
Oli Cook [00:21:27]:
Exactly. Totally with you on that. Exactly. Okay.
Richard Hill [00:21:31]:
So I guess You know, it's trying to also find this line because, you know, we want to educate, you know, we want to educate the customers in what we're doing in terms of sustainability and the things that we believe in. But it's like almost then also how far do we go with that? You know, we don't necessarily want to lecture them all the time with sustainability, sustainability, sustainability. You know, I think, have you got any examples of maybe brands that sort of, it's difficult probably question because Maybe we might not want to say brand names, but the way that certain brands really sort of promote their sustainability investment, what they do, what are some things that some brands are doing well, you would say, that maybe others can get advice from?
Oli Cook [00:22:20]:
It depends on levels, right? You've got people like Patagonia who are obviously through and through sustainability. That is hard to do, but their customers are unbelievably loyal, right? So they've done a superb job there and there's lots of interesting things there. I think it's actually more about brands taking their first steps in this journey. So lots of brands who are starting to lean in. I have, I get Origin Coffee. I don't even know about Origin Coffee.
Richard Hill [00:22:48]:
Yeah, I've had it. I've had it.
Oli Cook [00:22:50]:
Yeah. I now get that delivered and yeah, yeah, I buy that coffee because I like the coffee and I get it delivered. So that's why I buy it. But I would choose them over others because they actually talk about sustainability. So they're a big— yeah, sustainability story. That's interesting for me. That gives me the differentiated edge.
Richard Hill [00:23:04]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:23:05]:
And I think if I look across lots of things that I buy, again, people have that little bit of an edge. Another good example is, um, I've got them here actually. This is not placed, by the way. Coral Eyewear. Um, so Coral Eyewear, We do a partnership with them. This is not placed for that reason, but they make sunglasses made out of fishing nets taken out the ocean.
Richard Hill [00:23:31]:
Fabulous.
Oli Cook [00:23:31]:
Super high quality products. You know, it's not kind of— and there we've got partnership with them. But again, brands that are starting to lean into it but have high quality products and propositions anyway, it's just everything that adds to that story, that narrative, I think stands out. There's 3 brands there. I go different levels, right? Patagonia, Origin Coffee, And yeah, Coral Eyewear, all of which—
Richard Hill [00:23:53]:
Straight away, we've got to get all 3 of them on the podcast. If you can facilitate that for us, that'd be fabulous.
Oli Cook [00:23:59]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:24:00]:
It's funny, I'm actually after some new glasses. My glasses have had it.
Oli Cook [00:24:04]:
I need to, uh— I highly recommend Coral Eyewear.
Richard Hill [00:24:06]:
Yeah, no, I genuinely will have a look because I'm literally, I think I'm away next week, but the week after it's like, right, I need new glasses.
Oli Cook [00:24:12]:
Let's get that.
Richard Hill [00:24:13]:
Yeah, get that booked in. Get that booked in. Right, Ollie. We've covered some great ground, you know, great, great topic. I think what I'm gonna do now is a bit of a quickfire round.
Oli Cook [00:24:23]:
Okay?
Richard Hill [00:24:24]:
Okay. Are you ready?
Oli Cook [00:24:25]:
Nervous. Let's go.
Richard Hill [00:24:27]:
Yeah, I would be too. So one word on this one. Biggest myth about sustainability in business.
Oli Cook [00:24:37]:
Consumers. More than one word, but the consumers don't want it. Okay.
Richard Hill [00:24:43]:
I'm nervous about this one. Worldpay or eCompay, which partnership changed Ekko more?
Oli Cook [00:24:56]:
I have 2 kids and I don't have a favourite, by the way. So there you go.
Richard Hill [00:25:00]:
Brilliant. Okay, sorry, that was naughty of me.
Oli Cook [00:25:03]:
That's fine.
Richard Hill [00:25:04]:
Go. Should every e-commerce checkout have a carbon label by 2027?
Oli Cook [00:25:10]:
Should they, yes. Will they, no.
Richard Hill [00:25:12]:
Yeah. Sustainability in 5 years, table stakes, differentiator, or gone from the conversation?
Oli Cook [00:25:19]:
Differentiator. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:25:22]:
Still in 5 years.
Oli Cook [00:25:23]:
I, that's a sad answer, but I think it's—
Richard Hill [00:25:26]:
It'd be a shame, wouldn't it, if that was the, you know, obviously that's, it's gonna take that long for people really to get on board. Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:25:36]:
These things take time and we're a global organisation, global things, it just takes time. But you can win. If you go now, you win and you win big.
Richard Hill [00:25:45]:
Why do some brands, when they're sort of trying to, you know, they're trying to do the right thing, like we said, most people are genuinely, you know, are good when they want to contribute, invest, you know, and really have this sort of sustainability running through the business. But I guess people are not sure maybe what to do. You know, what would you say to those guys that are maybe, you know, we've talked, obviously we're talking about payments here, but also it's like, what are the things and, you know, how I think people are maybe a bit like, oh, I know we should be doing something. I know we should be doing something, but, you know, we've, like you said, we've, you know, we've, we've sorted the bins out. You know, it's like, well, what else? You know, add those other 4 or 5 things and We're planting some trees, but it's like, well, hang on. You know, I think it's more about this knowledge thing. You know, what would you say to those people that I'm sure we've got a lot of listeners right now that are like, oh yeah, we need to sort the payment thing out. That looks so simple and so great.
Richard Hill [00:26:43]:
But it's like they're just ticking a box in this moment, aren't they? Potentially. Whereas to try and ingrain that in the business more and more, what would you say to those guys?
Oli Cook [00:26:53]:
I think it's probably 2 things. One is be kind to yourself, right? This is complex. Like I said earlier, right? If there's a quick, easy solution to solve climate change, we would have all done it because we have to, right? So be kind to yourself. It is complex. It is hard. We have a company motto, which I think I'd apply to this, which is start by starting, right? It's the way that we approach everything in big hairy challenges. Start by starting.
Richard Hill [00:27:20]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:27:20]:
Actually, it was an old boss of mine who said it to me and I've kept it.
Richard Hill [00:27:24]:
I've rolled, I kind of So it's like how to eat an elephant one bite at a time sort of thing.
Oli Cook [00:27:28]:
Yeah, just start. I mean, yes, trying to shift a whole organisation to be fully sustainable from, you know, top to bottom, that's an unbelievably big challenge, especially if you're transforming a team versus starting a new— starting new is different. Transforming already, you know, you're doing $10 million revenue a year. Yeah, that's going to be hard and it's going to take time. But start by starting, start making the early steps, whether it is, you know, we start to recycle. Yes, we'll start to have green energy. Yes, we'll start to put Ekko in my checkout. Yes, we'll start to talk about our messaging.
Richard Hill [00:27:57]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:27:58]:
Just start and then things will slowly add up and be kind to yourself to let that be the first thing you do. Just do something and it'll build and it'll build and then you'll see consumer appetite grow and then you get more buyers.
Richard Hill [00:28:11]:
But what, what would be some of those things maybe? What would you say some of those, did you, we're just starting. Okay. Yeah, I agree, Ollie. Let's just start. But what could be 2 or 3 things that could lead to something more substantial?
Oli Cook [00:28:22]:
Lead to something more. So obviously deploy Echo. I mean, come on, surely that is obviously the first one off the bat. The second would be have a look at people like B Corp. How can you join that? How can you do that? Or the SME Climber, for example, and they help you figure out tracking your footprint. Okay, doing something.
Richard Hill [00:28:41]:
I think the B Corp, obviously we talk about B Corp a lot, but obviously going on the journey of becoming a B Corp just opens your eyes to a lot of things that you You may think you want to do more, and/or you maybe think you're doing a lot of really responsible things, but it's this education piece, isn't it? You don't know what you don't know. So going through that process of becoming a B Corp really opens your eyes, as you say, to, oh, okay, yeah. Oh, we could actually, we really could work on that. I didn't know that. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oli Cook [00:29:14]:
And it would land there. The other one which I've seen, and now I'm talking more kind of like medium to bigger size organisations is have it as sustainability as part of the process when you're choosing a partner of some sort, even if it's your, your marketing agency. Are they actually aligned to B Corp? If they are, great. And if they're not, you know what, you're lower down the list somehow.
Richard Hill [00:29:33]:
If you are that one.
Oli Cook [00:29:34]:
Yeah. For everything, right? Do you have some element to it? It's a very simple way to just— you've put it in there. It's a question that you ask whenever you're finding a partner in any part of it. You've started something, you'll slowly over time start to make decisions, then you realise that all your partners are in this space, and then you kind of, okay, now my supply chain is— it's just simple steps. You don't have to come in and go, right, all of our partners are now B Corp, I'm going to get rid of everyone. Yeah, that's not going to happen. We just start it.
Richard Hill [00:30:01]:
Yeah, great advice, Ollie. So for the, the guys that are with us still, I think, um, you know, there's definitely some steps there that you can, right, have a little pause for a minute and think, well, you know what, Let's have a look at B Corp. What does it entail? Where, you know, how does the application, the process begin? Where does it start? What could we do? Suppliers, looking at the, you know, the suppliers that we're working with, understanding that supply line. Obviously a lot of our listeners very much all over that, but then like you say, marketing, you know, on the marketing side, usually a lot of investment on marketing, you know, the partners that you're working with, how they work. But obviously payments is a big one. Yeah, I mean, let's stay there for a moment because I think it is obviously your tech really does enable that, as you say, that low-touch opportunity for consumers and brands to really contribute. So I think sustainability has really changed enormously in the sort of the what, 5, 6 years since you started Echo?
Oli Cook [00:31:10]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:31:11]:
You know, how has that conversation shifted inside finance and inside e-commerce brands? You know, I think trying to get people to actually use it and get it, what are you sort of seeing on the front line with the sort of leadership teams and the brands that you're working with?
Oli Cook [00:31:28]:
I think it's really interesting, and ignore the pun here, this is not intended, but sustainability can be a hot topic sometimes, and it can kind of go through that ups and downs of it's on everyone's forefront, everyone's agenda, then it's not on everyone's agenda, and then it kind of is, isn't, isn't. And the trajectory is obvious because it has to be. So it will always come back. It's one of those, but it comes back down.
Richard Hill [00:31:50]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:31:50]:
For us, the conversations are, they do evolve in that people are very much like, I needed to sort my house out. I need to do carbon accounting for me as an organisation. That has kind of changed to more around how do I build products and propositions that have that built into them? So it has shifted out, not just what we do, but actually organisations are less about tracking me, more about building value propositions that have it built in for my consumers. And we've definitely seen that shift over the last kind of 5 or 6 years. I think in the, in the technology kind of startup space, organisations who were helping businesses track their footprint have kind of maybe hit a level of a peak, whereas actually now it's the organisations who are helping people build value-add propositions that are seeing that kind of that spike at the moment.
Richard Hill [00:32:40]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:32:41]:
The other element I probably see is, is that flow of the sustainability officer in an organisation, which is quite interesting, is that sometimes they're there, then sometimes they go, and then sometimes they're there.
Richard Hill [00:32:52]:
Yeah. Go.
Oli Cook [00:32:53]:
And it kind of comes up and down, up and down. I think we're currently in a phase where They are on the way up a little bit because they were up and then they've kind of gone. They're on the way up a little bit, but generally they're wrapped into other areas as well. So you have it as an add-on to your existing job, is that this is your part of your role.
Richard Hill [00:33:10]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:33:11]:
That's kind of an evolution that happens. Um, but the main one that we, we often see is still that barrier of sustainability costs me money. How am I gonna solve that problem? That has been true throughout. Um, And trying to solve that is a big part of where we spend our time and effort, right? We've got to make sure that it's commercially viable to you.
Richard Hill [00:33:30]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:33:30]:
Otherwise, yeah, it's just reality in the real world. Unless it makes me money, it's very hard for me to do it.
Richard Hill [00:33:36]:
Yeah, it is that balance, isn't it? Ultimately, you know, I think, as you say, most people really, really, really want to do the right thing and do the right thing by their people, by their, you know, the planet and the local area where they, where they, where they run their business and so on and so on and so on. But at the same respect, Um, you know, you've gotta have a commercially viable business that can, you know, look after these people and enable you to do things that are the right things. And—
Oli Cook [00:34:02]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:34:02]:
So it's trying to get about, you know, very much the B Corp sort of way. So it's having a commercially sound business at the core of, you know, doing the right things for the people that are involved in the business, that are engaged in the business, they're in the supply line of the business, are buying from the business. You know, it's a, it is a, they are, I mean, I'm semi-obsessed with it, you know, now in terms of just the way we run this business, you know, from my business and then the businesses we work with. We just, you know, it's almost like I'm just so aware of it and the things that I buy and the way that those businesses, you know, run their business that I can see, you know, that, you know, if I'm—
Oli Cook [00:34:44]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:34:45]:
You know, it's just, it's just, I think, almost like a switch flip maybe 5 years ago for me. I think, um, I mean, I could talk about it a lot, but, you know, I was—
Oli Cook [00:34:54]:
I'm interested. 2 questions for you then. I know you're interviewing me, but I'm gonna ask you quickfire questions. Hey, so you are an advocate of sustainability and you're clearly passionate about it and make decisions based on it. What percentage of your friends do you think are also like you?
Richard Hill [00:35:11]:
See, I would say not enough.
Oli Cook [00:35:14]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:35:14]:
But then they might say that about me because they probably don't know that I am as passionate about it enough. Yeah. And if they did, I think they would be more sustainable, but they probably are. I just don't know it. Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:35:27]:
Isn't it interesting?
Richard Hill [00:35:29]:
Because I think, you know, that's sounding corny. I hang around with people that are, I would, how can I put it? They're a bit like me, you know, as a whole. So, you know, they do care very much, very, very deeply about people and the way things are done and done right and doing the right thing by. So I would say they are, but I probably just, it's just not in my face like they are.
Oli Cook [00:35:51]:
Yeah. I know. I think it's really interesting and it, I had it. So coming from a world of, you know, doing lots of things that were not in this space to now in it. When you speak to people and they're like, oh, I already do this. Oh, I use, you know, you're good to go. I started doing all this. Oh, I didn't realise that this was actually already built into your behaviors.
Oli Cook [00:36:09]:
We just, we don't talk about it in the pub. That doesn't mean that it's not there.
Richard Hill [00:36:13]:
I think that's what a lot of people listening, if they think, right, you know what, let's explore the B Corp journey. And then when you start going through the, it's quite a journey with the application process and in terms of the commitment to go through it. But then you go, we're doing that, we're doing this, we're doing that, we're doing, oh, do you know what? We are doing that. We're not documenting that. We need to document that. But you're like, tick, tick, tick, tick, you know what? And then it becomes like a bit of an addiction because you're like, I want to do more, I want to do more. Not just to get the plaque, you know, of course, but it's very much like, you know, well, you know what, we could improve on that, you know. So the bins then, so where do they go? Where do they actually end up? Do they actually, you know?
Oli Cook [00:36:56]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:36:56]:
So then we followed, obviously, as you have to, you know, follow through, you know, all the supply line of all the different things and people we work with. And we we've made some changes for sure. You know, it really just gives you that extra little, but until you sort of start maybe just putting a bit more focus onto it, it's, yeah. But no, was there another question for me, Ollie?
Oli Cook [00:37:16]:
Or is that our one? The other one was, what have you seen? So in terms of marketing communications, do you see people talk more or less about this? Or does it act as a, does it reduce my CAC? Cost of acquisition.
Richard Hill [00:37:29]:
Yeah, yeah, sorry. I know everyone was thinking that one. I was thinking, I thought you said cat then. I was like, what are you talking about?
Oli Cook [00:37:33]:
Everyone is listening to this going, knows what that is and spends time about it, no doubt.
Richard Hill [00:37:38]:
Yeah, no, yes is the short version. I think, you know, more and more of our, you know, the world we're in, we work with about 100 merchants directly, you know, at any given time. And it's very much a conversation that, you know, our clients have with our account managers or various conversations around what they're doing as a business, what they're investing in, you know, or where they're putting a focus in terms of sort of cost of acquisition. It's similar to what you said, you know, I don't have any numbers I can quote, but, you know, they're, you know, that sort of retention piece around helping them to, you know, really live, you know, true to themselves around what they believe in, but putting that more into the messaging, but in a genuine, genuine way. Absolutely. So we are seeing more of that sort of coming through, which is helping, you know, in some of the commercial side of things. Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:38:32]:
Yeah, interesting.
Richard Hill [00:38:33]:
Sort of future predictions, you know, we're sort of sat here, you know, in 3 years, sustainability, you know, the transactional level is standard, you've got another 50,000 customers and, you know, regulation sort of forced it maybe in that, you know, it's becoming the sort of norm, you know, more of the norm and, you know, that's the world we're in. And I think that's, you know, where we're heading. That's my sort of opinion, which is fabulous. But for the brands now, and you've touched on it already, for the brands now that are listening that really want to sort of make an impact now, you know, what should those sort of £3 to £20 million brands be focused on now to do the right thing now to really be, you know, doing the right thing in the future?
Oli Cook [00:39:17]:
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. So I like to think, like I said earlier, I like to think of a world where this is omnipresent, but I don't think it will get there in the short term. But brands who do it now will still have the differentiator elements at that point. And the reason I think that is if you start now, so lean in now to do stuff, because when it is more kind of generic for everyone to have an element of it, if you have a history, you have a story and a brand narrative, which is way stronger than someone who's just started it.
Richard Hill [00:39:49]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:39:50]:
And you can't catch up. You can't catch up. So if you've started now and in 5 years when everyone has a version of it, you are the one who's saying, we've done $10 million to impact, this is the impact we've had, this is the— and I've got my own project now also over here in this community. So you'll win, you'll win then.
Richard Hill [00:40:09]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:40:09]:
You can't—
Richard Hill [00:40:10]:
you're looking at your sustainability report from 4 years ago rather than trying to do your first one or—
Oli Cook [00:40:15]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't catch up in this space because it takes time. So Yeah. Go first and then you win now and you'll win then as well.
Richard Hill [00:40:23]:
Yeah, great. So I'm sure we've got some people still listening. I hope so, Ollie.
Oli Cook [00:40:31]:
Maybe my mum, you never know.
Richard Hill [00:40:32]:
So it's like, what are you gonna do, mum? Yeah, what are you gonna do? You know, and I think, you know, feel free to reach out to me, of course, reach out to Ollie. For those that want to reach out to you, Ollie, find out more about Echo, find out, you know, reach out to you directly, what's the best way to do that?
Oli Cook [00:40:49]:
Yeah, so echo.ai is the website. You can find us on Shopify, find lots of places. Find me on LinkedIn, Ollie Cook, or anyone in the Echo team, right? We're actually quite a nice team. We hire based on personalities over anything else. So anyone in Echo, more than happy to lean in and have a conversation, even if it's as simple as, hey, I just don't know where to start. We know this is a very collaborative space. It might not be us who can help, but I probably know the person who can. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:41:16]:
Brilliant. Brilliant.
Oli Cook [00:41:17]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:41:17]:
So we'll link that up in the show notes. Final question then, Ollie. We'd like to finish with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?
Oli Cook [00:41:27]:
Do you know what? I have a level of dyslexia, meaning I find it very hard to read long books and kind of get into it. So I don't read as many books as I should. I listen to more audiobooks. So my suggestion is different. It's for people who have the, this, the, the mind like me, which needs to be a little bit shorter but quite impactful.
Richard Hill [00:41:45]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:41:45]:
And it's a guy called John Sills, uh, which we put a link— I'm sure we put a link somewhere. He, uh, is part of a company called, uh, The Foundation, all about consumer psychology, consumer behavior, consumer propositions, consumer experiences. He has a blog that goes out which is perfectly digestible for people like me, uh, once a week. So I suggest follow him because he talks about customer experiences which are phenomenal but also utterly crazy that people have kind of fallen in a trap into or not thinking properly. And every week you'll get something which is super interesting. You can apply to your job, what you're up to. You'll also see the world in a slightly different place.
Richard Hill [00:42:27]:
Yeah.
Oli Cook [00:42:27]:
And so it's not a book, although he has a book, Yeah, I'm not plugging his book. Yeah, his weekly blog I find amazing, and I know that he'll plug his own book in there.
Richard Hill [00:42:38]:
Yeah, no, we'll link that up in the show notes. That sounds fabulous. That sounds like my cup of tea as well.
Oli Cook [00:42:43]:
It's brilliant.
Richard Hill [00:42:44]:
Yeah, I'm very much bite-sized. That's how I like to do things. I find it quite challenging to commit to a few hundred pages or so, but I do try, but it is quite, yeah, quite Well, interesting.
Oli Cook [00:42:57]:
Same, same, same. I've got a 9-year-old and a 7-year-old. I'm pretty sure they've read more books than me over the last few years. I know, I'm not pretty sure, I 100% know that's true. Yeah, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:43:08]:
Well, Ollie, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on the show and I look forward to catching up again.
Oli Cook [00:43:12]:
Excellent. Thank you.
Richard Hill [00:43:15]:
If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next one.
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