Podcast Overview
“There’s only so many times the director can put Michael Caine on the floor on a freezing cold day in Shoreditch.” If you want to understand this quote from episode 233, give it a listen.
Richard Hill sits down with Ben Grass, Founder of Grass & Co., to explore the journey of building a wellness brand that started in the CBD space and has boldly transitioned into the booming world of functional mushrooms and drinks.
Ben Grass reveals the behind-the-scenes realities of getting stocked in over 1,500 UK stores, shares practical tips for securing and maintaining major retail listings, and opens up about navigating regulatory hurdles in an evolving industry.
The conversation also delves into Grass & Co.’s international expansion attempts, the operational challenges of scaling up, and why strong products and authentic brand positioning outweigh chasing trends.
Rounding out the episode are insights from Ben Grass’s unique career journey, from producing films with legends like Michael Caine to innovating in the world of wellness. Whether you’re an eCommerce entrepreneur, aspiring retailer, or wellness enthusiast, this episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiring stories.
Topics Covered:
00:00 Ben Grass on scaling retail brands
04:55 Launching initial CBD product lines
10:44 Getting into Holland Barrett
12:41 Improving in-store product communication
16:49 Managing Cash Flow Challenges
17:59 Entering the Chinese market
21:15 Testing the German market
25:10 Challenges of Movie Financing
30:47 Discussing CBD regulations challenges
32:52 Navigating regulatory challenges in marketing
36:23 The “Touching Grass” campaign
39:28 Expanding drinks distribution and innovation
42:31 Ending and subscribe reminder
Ben Grass [00:00:00]:
Using mushrooms allowed us to explore things like attention and focus and brain function and also gut health.
Richard Hill [00:00:07]:
Very interesting sort of category that you're in.
Ben Grass [00:00:10]:
The company really was born from the idea that natural ingredients could play an important role in helping people with their health needs.
Richard Hill [00:00:18]:
I know you're stocked in, you know, 1,500+ UK stores. You mentioned Holland Barrett, but I think you're in Boots, Sainsbury's, Tesco's, and so forth. Maybe give the unglamorous version of how you got into those stores. maybe a few tips and tricks and things not to do as well.
Ben Grass [00:00:35]:
It's a long and hard road, I think, is, is the sort of summary of it. It certainly didn't happen overnight.
Richard Hill [00:00:42]:
Why people keep coming back to your brand, Grass Co.?
Ben Grass [00:00:44]:
The first thing is you have to create products that really work. Otherwise, you're not gonna get the results in consumers. They're not gonna recommend you, and the whole thing's a waste of time.
Richard Hill [00:00:57]:
Hey everyone, Richard Hill here, and welcome back to the eCom@One podcast. Today I'm joined by Ben Grass, founder of Grass and Co, a wellness brand that started with CBD and has since grown into functional mushrooms and drinks, with products stocked across lots of major UK retailers. In this episode, Ben shares how the brand made that shift, what it really takes to win and maintain national retail listings, and the operational lessons that come with scaling in stores like Holland and Barrett, Boots and Sainsbury's. We also get into international expansion, navigating regulation, building trust in a fast-growing category, and why strong products and clear brand positioning still matter more than chasing every new opportunity. So whether you're building an eCommerce brand, trying to break into retail, or exploring a new product category, there's plenty to take from this one. So, so much more in this one. We even chat about Ben's time as a film producer directing the legend Michael Caine. So an absolute cracker of an episode.
Richard Hill [00:01:56]:
So do me one quick favor, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening so you never miss an episode. Let's dive in. Hi, Ben, how are you?
Ben Grass [00:02:06]:
Hi, Richard. I'm very well, thank you. Yes. How are you? Good to see you today.
Richard Hill [00:02:10]:
I'm really well, actually. Really good. Can't complain at all. We're at the start of the summer here in the UK. So we were just chatting, weren't we, about a few little adventures we're both going on over the next week or 3. So— Absolutely. Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:02:25]:
Some walking trips coming up and great sport at the moment, isn't there? It's a wonderful time to be a sports fan.
Richard Hill [00:02:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it just? Well, fingers crossed when this episode goes live, we might have brought it home.
Ben Grass [00:02:44]:
Indeed.
Richard Hill [00:02:44]:
Right. Well, let's dive in. I'm loving the background, by the way. Have you read all of those books?
Ben Grass [00:02:49]:
Gosh, I'd love it if I had. It's there as a sort of statement of ambition rather than kind of conquest. But No, there's some good ones that I fancy reading. Maybe that's for the summer.
Richard Hill [00:03:01]:
Yeah. Well, we'll maybe ask you about that at the end. We do like a good book on the podcast, so we'll have a look at one of your favorites maybe towards the end. Right. So I know Grass and Co started as a CBD brand and now leads with functional mushrooms and so forth. So maybe walk us through the actual moment you decided to shift that sort of category and what triggered it and sort of how risky that felt with that sort of existing business and existing customer base that you created?
Ben Grass [00:03:33]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's maybe worth just giving a couple of words on, I suppose, the inspiration for the company because that philosophy ultimately sort of allowed us to continue through from CBD to mushrooms. But the company really was born from from the idea that natural ingredients could play an important role in helping people with their health needs. And that was something that I experienced firsthand with CBD when I injured my shoulder in a climbing accident in California. And I'd heard about CBD through my brother who'd been a fan of, I suppose, herbal remedies for a long time. And it's So something that he knew about, but I brought some back from California and that helped Tom with his anxiety. He'd been suffering with depression for a long time. So we were both intrigued by its potential and started to look into it.
Ben Grass [00:04:29]:
And the notion for the company was really about how can we combine a powerful natural hero ingredient like CBD, which had a lot of, you know, growing consumer awareness with other adaptogens and vitamins to build a formulation that could help with a specific health need and to market that need to the consumer rather than necessarily just talking about the individual ingredients.
Richard Hill [00:04:55]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:04:55]:
So our first CBD products were around 3 needs: pain management, and we called that range Ease; anxiety, and we called that range Relax; and the third one was, sorry, Calm was the second one around anxiety, and then rest around sleep, because that's where this sort of evidence pointed to CBD playing a role. And when we launched the company, you know, we were exploring both D2C and retail initially, almost to see what would work. And, you know, we're lucky enough to have some success, I suppose, in both channels, but we leaned into retail because CBD has a number of regulatory restrictions. And really, I suppose the story about the specific transition to mushrooms is when we kind of reached a point where we had a good relationship by that point with Holland and Barrett. And I can talk a bit more about that, but that allowed us to explore launching a mushroom category. And bringing this kind of new, I suppose, hero ingredient to consumers, which we'd grown excited about. And I guess that the sort of, well, I suppose to talk a little bit more about that, really my interest in mushrooms had started from reading a book about psychedelic mushrooms, which is this book by Michael Pollan, How to Change Your Mind.
Richard Hill [00:06:33]:
Wow.
Ben Grass [00:06:33]:
And it's a wonderful kind of accessible book that just summarises the scientific research around a range of different psychedelic compounds. And reading about mushrooms in that book led me to understand that there was this whole category of medicinal or functional mushrooms, which have been used in, particularly in Asian herbal medicine for actually several thousand years. And that in a market, well, in California in particular, there was beginning to be a market for that. So, so the insight there was, okay, well, we've worked with, with CBD for a while as a hero ingredient. Is there now an opportunity to bring functional mushrooms to, to consumers in the UK and use that as a new hero ingredient and to, to address some new health needs? So if we'd, we'd been looking at pain and anxiety and sleep with CBD, using mushrooms allowed us to explore things like consumer attention and focus and brain function and also gut health. So it was a means also of just serving different additional health needs.
Richard Hill [00:07:44]:
So the mushroom side, so is this lion's mane more so, is it?
Ben Grass [00:07:48]:
Yeah, that's right. We've been working with a number of different mushrooms, We've had the most success with lion's mane, but we also work with reishi and shiitake and maitake as well. But lion's mane seems to be the mushroom that most people have an awareness of in the UK. And that's the one that we work with to look at cognitive function and focus. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:08:11]:
So in terms of sort of split then, the sort of the mushroom side of the business is what is sort of, what's the sort of percentage split between that and the other areas?
Ben Grass [00:08:20]:
Yes. Well, fast forwarding to the present day, mushrooms is the bulk of our business really.
Richard Hill [00:08:26]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:08:26]:
I mean, we also have a drinks range most recently, which uses mushrooms as well as a sort of active ingredient. But I would say it's kind of 80/20 now really, and growing by the day, the mushrooms element.
Richard Hill [00:08:40]:
Yeah. Well, brilliant. Thank you for giving us that sort of overview. Very interesting sort of category that you're in. I know as a performance agency behind, you know, behind the podcast performance agency, obviously there's quite a few dos and don'ts of what you can and can't do in terms of where you can market, you know, these types of products in this category. Which brings me on to the sort of the retail side. I know you're stocked in, you know, 1,500+ UK stores. You mentioned Holland Barrett, but I think you're in Boots, Sainsbury's, Tesco's, and so forth.
Richard Hill [00:09:16]:
Maybe give us the unglamorous version of getting into those shelves, getting on those shelves, getting in those stores. Maybe, I know we'll probably have a lot of listeners that are quite intrigued and quite interested that are maybe very much focused on the eCommerce sort of performance side, performance marketing, SEO, PPC, and Google Ads and so forth, but maybe also very keen to get their products listed in some of these stores or in stores around the UK or around the world, maybe give the unglamorous version of how you got into those stores, maybe a few tips and tricks and things not to do as well.
Ben Grass [00:09:57]:
Yeah. I mean, it's a long and hard road, I think is the sort of summary of it. It certainly didn't happen overnight and obviously a good deal of luck involved along the way. I think where we started at retail was with one or two independent health food stores, knocking on doors. And then we had a bit of a break in terms of, I suppose, a prestige opportunity initially with Selfridges. And we met someone who just left Selfridges and we were able to do a deal with that individual that if they helped us get a listing, then there was a revenue share. And that's how we sort of started.
Richard Hill [00:10:39]:
So somebody that's sort of a friend of yours then, or somebody you knew from a previous role or that type of thing?
Ben Grass [00:10:44]:
Yeah, that's right. Someone that I came across through a friend, through my network of And we got along and so that's how we got in there. But we were quite conscious that really what we needed was a national listing to elevate the scale of the business. And in the world of supplements, really Holland Barrett is where it's at. And so that was the target. And you've got that challenge, of course, how do you get your emails read? How do you meet someone who works there? What's going to make the difference when every brand is knocking on their door and trying to get in? And I think eventually, well, one of the things that was helpful was again through an old friend, we managed to get an introduction to someone quite senior there and got a meeting. And then, well, actually at that time it was the chairman. And then we were able to meet some some executives who were at an interesting growth moment in their own careers.
Ben Grass [00:11:46]:
I think Holland Barrett at that time had just been acquired by LetterOne, and there was a new kind of cadre of executives. And I think we were lucky enough to meet some of those people at the moment when their own careers were doing good things and kind of went on a journey together. But what we tried to do was figure out obviously, okay, we've got this listing now, but this is just the start. You know, how on earth are we going to move products? How are we going to get this thing to work? What's the rhythm in a way that we have to find? And, you know, one of the things that we were scratching our heads around was we've got this, we've got this, these CBD products, but there's all kinds of regulation about what a member of staff can say about CBD and its benefits. in the store. So it's not even straightforward, this is ABC of what it does. You have to be quite careful.
Richard Hill [00:12:40]:
Yes.
Ben Grass [00:12:41]:
So we created a little simple cheat sheet, a wooden cheat sheet that we gave to every store that lived by the till that just gave colleagues at Holland Barrett some simple things that they could say about our products. And the other thing that we did was that we we put a lot of effort and actually money into attending their annual conference for members of staff, which suppliers are invited to, to make sure that again, we could get to know people up and down the country who ultimately be our, of course, our sales force, if you will, or our representatives within the stores. And then the other thing I think was just trying to make sure in general that our packaging communicated in as simple a way as possible what the product benefit was. So, so again, rather than talking about ingredients, we talked about health needs. So the, the pain product was called Ease, you know, the sleep product was called Rest, the anxiety product was called Calm. And that, so that's sort of simple communication.
Richard Hill [00:13:46]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:13:46]:
Particularly with a newfangled ingredient. I mean, why, why should people know what CBD could do for them? Um, but that all, that all kind of worked. And so we were very lucky. We, we, we got awarded their New Supplier of the Year Award in our, in our first year of trading. Um, and that was the thing I think ultimately that allowed us to have the, we earned the right to have the conversation then around mushrooms because the CBD stuff had, had been working quite well. And, and we were very close and we still are with, with Holland and Barrett.
Richard Hill [00:14:17]:
Yeah, I love that. I love what you did there, Ben. I think the, so the people that are sort of on the ground in the, in the stores, there's a few things there, but the people that are on the ground, in the stores that are getting asked questions and so forth. You're making it easier for them to understand the brand, understand the products, understand the ingredients, what they can and can't say with the card. I love that, the packaging. But then the piece where you went to, I think, the sort of supplier, what was that called? Like a supplier yearly sort of meet and greet type of—
Ben Grass [00:14:47]:
Yes, I suppose a supplier conference, if you will.
Richard Hill [00:14:50]:
Yeah. And then obviously they get to meet you as the founder, they get to meet, you know, obviously feel the products and so forth, understand. Yeah, a lot of work goes into that, Ben, doesn't it? I think you're sitting there nice and calm and relaxed, but that sounds like, you know, an incredible journey and incredible, you know, what's maybe a couple of things there that looking back you could have done a little bit better? You know, obviously you've got this great result now, you know, some fantastic examples of things to do, but there's maybe a couple of bits there Where maybe people that are listening might make mistakes when they're trying to get into some of these brands?
Ben Grass [00:15:25]:
Well, I think the thing that we had to learn, suddenly when you're dealing with a large partner, a national retailer, is, gosh, we've really got to get our act together when it comes to delivering product on time in the right quantities. So it forced a discipline within our own supply chain of making sure that our order and forecasting was up to speed. And also kind of keeping tabs almost on the rate at which the products were being sold in stores. So it was almost anticipating the pull-through and the orders. And then also, of course, just from a sort of financial standpoint and cash flow management, retailers tend to deduct the value of the promotional discounts that have been operative in stores after the fact. So just getting used to the rhythm of how cash would come through and the payment terms, I think we moved at that point to a factoring partner just to make sure the cash was coming through.
Richard Hill [00:16:34]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:16:35]:
So that sort of thing was an absolute learning curve because it suddenly becomes business critical when you've got a large partner becoming a larger part of your business or more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:16:49]:
The factoring one, I think, you know, and cash flowing, you know, it's obviously like you say, it's potentially, and obviously that's what you're after, potentially, you know, more than likely they're bigger commitments because they've got, you know, hundreds of stores and so forth. Obviously starts out with so many, but no doubt the ultimate aim is to get quite a lot of those stores. And but then that's a Great upside, but then on the sort of commercial operational side, you've got to deliver that product on time, you've got to cash flow, you've got to produce those products. You know, there's a lot of operational things that have to be thought about. And then, as we said, that cash flow. So, you know, factoring is an option, you know, or, you know, it's obviously just, you know, the different payment terms that these people require are usually slightly longer than, you know, quite a lot of sort of smaller deals. So yeah, it's quite a lot to factor in.
Ben Grass [00:17:39]:
Yes. Well, thank you for that, Ben.
Richard Hill [00:17:39]:
Thank you very Thank you very much for sharing. I think a lot of tips there for our listeners. So change of direction. I think my researchers tell me that you launched into China and Germany in the same year. Sounds pretty crazy. Why those 2 markets and why at the same time?
Ben Grass [00:17:59]:
Yeah, I think in retrospect, probably was a bit crazy. I think There were a couple of thoughts. I think with China, we were very aware because of this close relationship, I suppose, with Holland Barrett that their own business was exploding in China. And obviously the scale of the opportunity felt incredibly tantalising. We'd also seen that a couple of, I think they were both Australian brands, had absolutely exploded in that market, Swisse and Blackmores. So there was a sense, okay, if you can get it right, this is potentially transformational. And the question then is to go, well, how do we dip our toe in the water without bedding the farm and distracting this very small team that we've got in the UK? And the thing that tipped the balance was that we were lucky enough, I suppose, to meet the same distributor that Holland Barrett used in China, who I guess had a favorable impression of us because of the success that we were having in the UK with Holland Barrett. And then we got down to the brass tacks of exploring, okay, how do you do it? So cross-border eCommerce felt like an approach where we could essentially ship products that we made in the UK without having to go to the expense of changing packaging and then see how those products would perform on these vast, you know, social commerce platforms over there.
Ben Grass [00:19:33]:
Yeah. As that, you know, Douyin and JD and so on. Um, and, and to some extent, let, let the distributor do the work to build the demand and, and, and hopefully, you know, allow us to sail off into the sunset.
Richard Hill [00:19:47]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:19:48]:
Um, but I think the, you know, the interesting learning that we had, uh, of course it's challenging to go in as a, as a no-name new entrant into a massive ultra-competitive space. But the second thing was that, um, we actually found that although there'd been a very long, there has been an enormous history of usage of these functional mushrooms in China, that some of them had been used for different things in China versus the health need that we were suggesting they should be used for in the UK. So he had a dual problem of new brand, how do you build awareness for a new brand and different patterns of usage? And I think, you know, the third thing was that we quite quickly realised that despite, you know, actually great personal relationships, that same distributor was also servicing Disney. in China. So we were just not getting the kind of TLC. So we were able to actually exit that relatively painlessly after a period of time, but very interesting learning experience. I think principally around just the sophistication of the eCommerce environment in China and the way, obviously we're seeing this now with TikTok and the kind of dynamic selling, in-person selling, in China, that's just next level. And so, you know, I was lucky enough to be there a few times and see that, which was fascinating.
Ben Grass [00:21:15]:
Germany was a slightly different rationale. You know, we still have a large shareholder based in Germany with a successful pharmaceutical business. And so the thought there, again, via distributors, can we, you know, can we test the water? And we got a We've got a pilot with a retailer, but I think what we again observed is to build demand for a new brand, you know, the investment levels that would've been required to get the sell-through. So just, I think tactically we just thought, okay, we've looked at that, turned it over. Let's pull back without committing large amounts of money and just focus again for a while on the core market. So you sort of, it's funny, you know, on these journeys, you try things, We tried to do it in a somewhat de-risked way, but maybe the lesson learned there was unless you go in hardcore, all guns blazing, every market's tough. Every market that is attractive is competitive. And so maybe, well, let's just bide our time and do the UK a bit more and a bit better before we go and try that again.
Richard Hill [00:22:28]:
It's like the entrepreneur in you, isn't it? In us, I think, you know, it's Well, if you don't try these things, how would you know really which one is going to be the thing or which several? You've got to take the shots, haven't you? I believe within me.
Ben Grass [00:22:44]:
I think that's right. You see possibility. And I think naturally, probably as an entrepreneur, we're glass half full people. So is there an angle here? But as I say, luckily we didn't lose our shirts.
Richard Hill [00:23:00]:
Yeah. He sort of came out the other end sort of thing of those 2 2 sort of projects, shall we say, here.
Ben Grass [00:23:06]:
That's right.
Richard Hill [00:23:07]:
That's right. So, change of direction again, something I am super intrigued with. I am a huge movie fan and I understand you sort of in a previous life, shall we say, you were producing films with the likes of Michael Caine, Sony Pictures, et cetera. And obviously now you're running a wellness brand, very different, I would say, in terms of career, industry? You know, what's maybe one instinct from the entertainment world that turned out to be completely wrong for eCommerce and something that maybe has helped you, you know, from that previous life?
Ben Grass [00:23:47]:
Yeah, I was thinking a little bit about the similarities and differences, you know, between the two businesses. I think the one thing that's very true of both is ultimately, you know, with a film or and then in the same way with a company, you are trying to give birth to an idea. You're trying to bring a story to life and find an audience, communicate that to an audience. And so that's a very similar process. You know, how can I find something that resonates here? Obviously there are some big differences though, and I think one of the differences is a film, you know, I think an average independent movie typically takes 8 or 10 years to come to market. So, you have this extraordinary journey as a producer, and really as a sort of primary risk-taker in that endeavor, where you are ponying up for script revisions.
Richard Hill [00:24:46]:
Yes.
Ben Grass [00:24:46]:
You know, you've got cast and directors, you're taking all the risk money.
Richard Hill [00:24:51]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:24:51]:
But actually, your return only comes at the moment when the entire production budget is crystallised. And actually raising the money really just involves this extraordinary kind of alignment of stars where, okay, you've got the script right, but then suddenly, have we got the director who's financeable?
Richard Hill [00:25:09]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:25:10]:
Is that star available in that moment? And is the money there? Bang, let's go. So it's an extraordinary process. And then I think the other aspect of it, which is very challenging, is actually, to tell investors with confidence that they will get a return from a movie is a difficult thing for a long range of reasons. What I enjoyed, have enjoyed about the process of running Grasshopper Co. is that some of the same excitement, creative excitement comes to you in terms of, again, how do I make this come to life? I believe in this idea. I want to give birth to it. How do I tell the story around it in a way that's compelling? But the nice thing is that it's not dependent on getting the $15 million in place.
Richard Hill [00:26:06]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:26:07]:
You can get going, you can start moving, you can try things in a nimble way, and you can see how something pans out for $150,000, you can launch a product or what, you know, so you can be nimble and reach audiences again, you know, with sort of Shopify or whatever it might be and test and learn so that it's more dynamic. And I actually think, you know, in many ways more satisfying entrepreneurially because you can do stuff continuously through the process. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:26:43]:
So, working with Michael Caine then, any stories you could share?
Ben Grass [00:26:47]:
Well, you know, I mean, yes, he's an extraordinary figure, of course. And when we worked with him, he was 87 years old. So, you know, there's a physical dimension to how long you could shoot and how, you know, and we had to be sensitive to that. He was getting shot in a particular scene, and there's only so many times the director director can put him on the floor on a freezing cold day in Shoreditch and bring him, bring him up. But no, it was just an honor because he would, he would sit around more so with the actors, just tell them stories about the '60s or what, what this was like or that was like. And sense of humor is utterly intact. Yeah, um, absolutely.
Richard Hill [00:27:32]:
Class, class actor, class films.
Ben Grass [00:27:34]:
Isn't he?
Richard Hill [00:27:35]:
Yeah. Oh yeah, well, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about Alfie and And I've seen the film you're referring to, you know, with Rita Ora was in it, wasn't she?
Ben Grass [00:27:45]:
Yes, that's right.
Richard Hill [00:27:46]:
Yeah, that's right. So many classics. So many classics. Oh yeah. What memories you must have of that chapter of your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ben Grass [00:27:54]:
No, very, very exciting. And, you know, still, of course, I mean, as we all do, just love the movies. I mean, The Odyssey right now, I can't, I cannot wait to get into the cinema this weekend.
Richard Hill [00:28:06]:
That's exactly what most of the discussion this week has been around, the last couple of days with my family, because it's obviously shot in IMAX, isn't it? And we are— yes, 3 of us are in Norwich, which has an IMAX cinema, but my other son is not. But we're like, shall we see it without him? And he's like, you can't do that. So we're trying not to, but we might have to go and then see it again with him.
Ben Grass [00:28:28]:
It's one that was worth several viewings. I'm sure it's going to be. Yeah. And the film—
Richard Hill [00:28:33]:
yeah, not very—
Ben Grass [00:28:34]:
it's so hard to get tickets now, isn't it, for the IMAX thing? I think it's sold out. Not even the midnight streams.
Richard Hill [00:28:39]:
Yeah, I think we might have to, yeah, we'll see. We've not booked yet, so fingers crossed. Um, yeah, it might have to be an afternoon off in a week or so, maybe. Yes. Yes. Very exciting. Um, so Ben, I'm going to do a quickfire round with you now. So, okay, are you ready?
Ben Grass [00:28:56]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:28:57]:
You sure?
Ben Grass [00:28:58]:
Well, let's see. I hope so.
Richard Hill [00:29:01]:
So quickfire, you've got 5 seconds or less to answer these questions. You ready?
Ben Grass [00:29:05]:
Okay.
Richard Hill [00:29:06]:
CBD or functional mushrooms, which has the bigger future?
Ben Grass [00:29:10]:
Functional mushrooms.
Richard Hill [00:29:11]:
Okay. Best retail partner for Grass Co.?
Ben Grass [00:29:15]:
Holland Barrett.
Richard Hill [00:29:17]:
Fabulous. China or Germany, which market surprised you more?
Ben Grass [00:29:24]:
China.
Richard Hill [00:29:25]:
Yeah. One word for what nearly kills a retail listing?
Ben Grass [00:29:33]:
Stock management.
Richard Hill [00:29:35]:
Stock management. Yeah. Yeah. And then finally, film producer or brand founder, which is harder?
Ben Grass [00:29:43]:
Film producer.
Richard Hill [00:29:44]:
Yeah. Sounds like a walk in the park what you're doing now compared to—
Ben Grass [00:29:50]:
It has its advantages.
Richard Hill [00:29:52]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:29:53]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:29:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, brilliant. Well, thank you for that. So, Obviously, we touched on it, but sort of regulations. I think, you know, we work in, you know, as an agency, you know, we work in a lot of industries that have got a lot of different regulations, a lot of cans and dos and don'ts. But CBD regulation has been moving, has been a sort of a moving target in the UK. You know, how much of your roadmap has been shaped by anticipating sort of regulatory change, things changing and so forth? You know, what would you say to that?
Ben Grass [00:30:23]:
Yeah, I think regulations are, they're rightly an incredibly important part of this landscape. We're selling things that people put in their bodies on the expectation that they're going to become healthier as a consequence. And so it's right and proper that there are a lot of rules around how that's done.
Richard Hill [00:30:47]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:30:47]:
But at the same time, Obviously, you can't exclusively be guided by what you can and can't do and what a regulator sort of says. It's much more about what's the promise of this brand? What do we think customers will benefit from? So that's how we try to be led. But CBD specifically, as you know, has been fraught with sort of regulatory complication. It's a novel food. So Apparently there's no evidence of sustained consumption before whatever the date is, I think 1972 or something. And there's been a multi-year process to evaluate all the CBD products on the market since I think 2021. And in that time, you haven't been able to innovate and launch new products. There's guidance that comes out that changes the recommended dosing.
Ben Grass [00:31:42]:
Yeah. Um, it's— and, you know, as in addition to that, there are, there are real restraints about how you can advertise online. So actually building a digital business, again, as you, you know very well, it's quite tricky. Um, you, uh, so, so you feel sometimes that you're doing CBD with one hand behind your back despite, despite knowing actually it's a, it's a brilliant ingredient and, and it's something that does has benefited me and my family and lots of our customers. So with mushrooms, there are fewer of those kinds of restrictions. So you can speak slightly more openly with customers, albeit of course having to test everything. And we've always been incredibly transparent. We put a QR code on every single pack of goods that we sold, which if you click on it, tells you exactly the certificate of analysis and, you know, for that particular batch.
Richard Hill [00:32:42]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:32:42]:
So we always want to share that with customers and be very open about what's in things. But it's, it's just a bit easier with functional mushrooms, I would say.
Richard Hill [00:32:50]:
Yeah.
Ben Grass [00:32:51]:
Yeah, I think it is.
Richard Hill [00:32:52]:
You know, I think, you know, we work in a lot of regulatory, you know, niches and it's sort of just as you say, you've got to sort of you know, sort of things change, things move on, you know, what can you do to be that little bit more nimble, maybe a little bit more creative, stand out as a brand, which I think we'll come to in a minute. But it's also an opportunity, isn't it? Because obviously, probably traditional, maybe hardcore performance marketers may struggle. So therefore, you know, having more of a holistic marketing approach, you know, a bit of, you know, a lot more, a bit of a mix of retail and performance where you can, you know, which, you know, some of the retail stuff can be a lot more tricky for certain brands and so forth. So you're relying more on that sort of background brand ethos and so forth. But there's usually a way, isn't there? I think. But whether sometimes it could be a bit harder, maybe. So I think we sort of touched on it there, but what I'm interested in is, you know, I think the functional mushrooms particularly, you know, becoming more and more popular. That's something I'm quite aware of.
Richard Hill [00:33:59]:
You know, I know I've met a couple of people locally that are doing certain things with functional mushrooms and so forth. A lot of the Holland Barrett are stocking it thanks to yourselves and other brands and so forth pushing. What's maybe the actual differentiator that keeps coming back to why people keep coming back to your brand, Grass Co.?
Ben Grass [00:34:24]:
Yeah. Hopefully, it's a combination of product excellence and great great branding and what, you know, what, and what we stand for. And on the, on the product side of things, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we've always tried to, um, create products that combine, um, a range of outstanding ingredients so that in the case of a mushroom product, not just the, let's say, the lion's mane, but it's also the adaptogens that combine with that and the vitamins, but With regards to the mushrooms themselves, I mean, when we first were exploring whether to do it, we partnered with a number of experts. And in particular, there's a wonderful man called Martin Powell who's a mycologist who's been traveling to China for 30 years and speaks Mandarin. And China really is, as I said, the heartland of where mushrooms, you know, have come from and where the usage is. is so sort of well understood. And so Martin was kind enough to introduce me to a lady who has got an extraordinary farm in the hills in China. And I went to see her with my co-founder, Matt Snaiman, who's still our creative director, to see the farm, see what she's doing.
Ben Grass [00:35:43]:
It's this wonderful organic farm. So we were we got very, very comfortable that what we were buying from them was outstanding quality and sort of vouchsafed by Martin. So I think the first thing is you have to create products that really work. Otherwise, you're not going to get the results in consumers. They're not going to recommend you and the whole thing's a waste of time. You're in the snake oil business. So I think differentiated, outstanding product. And then what does the brand mean? Are when we first started the company, we worked with the kind of brand ethos of life inspired by nature, which I rather liked.
Ben Grass [00:36:23]:
And we've had different versions of that. But what our latest campaign has been talking about is the notion of touching grass. And what we're trying to speak to with that is the idea that our focus products help you to find attention in a world where our attention span sort of being fragmented and splintered by all this time we spend on phones and social media. And there are alarming statistics on there about just, you know, what's happened to people's attention in just in the last 20 years. So we're trying to think about an association with natural ingredients, putting the phone down, being in nature, allowing almost our minds to sort of settle and And trying to change people's minds about wellness and their own wellbeing and being proactive about that, which I think is something that really is happening, particularly since COVID I think people have taken a lot more interest in their own health and their longevity and how to try and assure that in midlife and earlier, not just having to fix a problem when it's time to go and see the doctor.
Richard Hill [00:37:34]:
It's too late. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot more awareness. Yeah. Lovely. Lovely. And did you, so did you change your name before you started this brand?
Ben Grass [00:37:43]:
No, that's just a lucky, a lucky coincidence. You're Grass by name, Grass by, by nature. So it's, I got a lot of kind of ribbing from that, from my friends, you know, but it's, yeah, it's a funny thing, isn't it? 2, 2 Grass brothers, uh, in, in the, in this sort of cannabis business, uh, or the CBD business. And so Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:38:04]:
See, I'm quite into my grass, but the different kind of grass, to be fair, my lawn. I'm a bit of a—
Ben Grass [00:38:10]:
Oh yeah, me too.
Richard Hill [00:38:11]:
If you're a follower of the podcast, I mentioned it probably on every 5th episode. Most evenings, I just treated myself to a new mower and it's been an obsession of mine.
Ben Grass [00:38:26]:
I need to seek your advice on that because I love my lawn as well, but it's really suffering from my dog wandering around. I've got this wonderful broad who's down.
Richard Hill [00:38:35]:
Tricky. Patches you've got. I've got a few patches.
Ben Grass [00:38:39]:
That's what I need to fix.
Richard Hill [00:38:40]:
Yeah, yeah. I've been up. Yeah, this heatwave we've been having has been a bit of a challenge for me this last sort of 3 weeks. And then they've just had the hosepipe ban where we are yesterday. So it's causing a few challenges, shall we say. But yeah, I like to have a little walk on the grass barefoot most days and then various routines that I'll maybe talk to you about off camera.
Ben Grass [00:39:02]:
Yes, yes, I guess I need some tips on that front. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:39:07]:
Well, Ben, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Last couple of questions. You know, let's say we're sat here in sort of a couple of years' time, you know, what do you think the future holds for Grass Co.? Where do you see you pushing? Have you got any insights into where the focus will be you could share with the Yes.
Ben Grass [00:39:28]:
Well, we've had a wonderful time in the last 18 months or so with our new drinks range. And we launched in Sainsbury's a couple of months ago and that's going very well. So I think what we want to try and do is expand the distribution for our drinks. Obviously, unlike supplements, a lot more shops stock drinks. So it's going to be possible to get Yep. Much broader distribution footprint in the UK, which is exciting. And then I think on the supplements front, it's about thinking again, what is the next wave of product innovation going to look like? Consumers are always facing new challenges and there's new opportunities arising. I mean, if you think about something like GLP-1, for example, all those people exploring weight management, what does that mean for supplementation? So every year almost, there are different sorts of trends that we need to stay abreast of and see if we can be helpful to people around.
Richard Hill [00:40:33]:
Yeah, I think that's fabulous advice. Thank you, Ben. Well, I like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book to recommend to our listeners?
Ben Grass [00:40:41]:
I do. I've talked about How to Change Your Mind, which would definitely be one of those recommendations. But the second one I wanted to mention is The Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway, which is really one of my favorites. And it's a short book. You can read it in an evening. And it's the story, as you know, of an old man, a fisherman who goes many, many days without catching anything at all. And his faithful young companion who helps him leaves him. You know, there's no work to be had, but he keeps persevering and he decides to go very far out to sea to catch a marlin.
Ben Grass [00:41:19]:
and he eventually hooks this enormous fish and lashes it, takes him 3 days, but he lashes it to his small boat and brings it back in. But on the way back in, the sharks come for it and eat it. And so despite his Herculean efforts, on the one hand, this prize is destroyed, but when he gets back into the village, they see the skeleton and they realise what he's accomplished. And so he wins back the respect of the village. And so I love that story because it's obviously, it's about, in some senses, the entrepreneurial journey. You know, you've got to go out for a prize and you've got to be tough and you've got to be resilient and stay the course and sort of bring it back into shore.
Richard Hill [00:42:04]:
Oh, I love that. I love that. That'll be on my little, my holiday list for like the week after next. Oh, great.
Ben Grass [00:42:11]:
Yes. Good stuff.
Richard Hill [00:42:12]:
Thank you, Ben. It's been an absolute pleasure. For those that want to find out more about yourself, more about Grass Co., what's the best way to do that?
Ben Grass [00:42:18]:
Yes, please visit us at grassandco.com and we would love to answer any questions about our products and see whether you like them.
Richard Hill [00:42:26]:
Well, thank you, Ben. Thank you for coming on the show.
Ben Grass [00:42:28]:
Thank you very much, Richard. Great to spend time with you.
Richard Hill [00:42:31]:
Bye. I'll see you soon. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next one.
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