Podcast Overview
How Hair Syrup Became the UK’s Fastest Growing Beauty Brand
In this episode recorded live at our Live Uncut event, Richard Hill sits down with Lucie , founder of Hair Syrup, to unpack one of the most inspiring eCommerce success stories of the past five years. What started as a personal solution to hair problems in a Warwick University student kitchen has exploded into an 8-figure business that became the most viral hair care brand on TikTok globally.
Lucie walks us through the moment she realized Hair Syrup was going to be massive, her unconventional journey from mixing oils with measuring spoons to managing 7 hours of meetings daily while staying creative, and why her Dragons’ Den rejection turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to her business. She explains how she reduced TikTok Shop revenue from 49% to less than 23% through strategic diversification, her unconventional hiring philosophy of not hiring people who’ve had traditional jobs, and why content creation should come naturally if you’re in the right role.
This episode covers the untold story of what really happened on Dragons’ Den including footage that never aired, why Steven Bartlett’s concerns about platform dependency were valid but the exposure was priceless, going viral for three consecutive weeks after the show and turning down 60 investors who reached out, shifting TikTok from revenue driver to brand awareness touchpoint, the power of Meta ads, email marketing, SMS campaigns, gift with purchase strategies, and in-person events for building a DTC brand, managing the balance between operational meetings and creative work as a founder, and why the Goldman Sachs 10KSB program transformed her business more than any book could.
Lucie’s story proves that sometimes the best businesses aren’t meticulously planned, they find you. With no formal business training, no business books read, and starting with just a few hundred pounds, she’s built a beauty empire that rivals established brands globally. Whether you’re in eCommerce, building a DTC brand, managing social media strategy, or fascinated by modern entrepreneurship, this episode is packed with tactical insights on platform diversification, content creation at scale, viral marketing, and building a brand that resonates deeply with customers.
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Topics Covered:
00:00 Introduction and angel number synchronicity
01:14 How Hair Syrup started in a student kitchen
04:33 The viral TikTok that changed everything
08:11 Scaling from 10 bottles to 8 figures
14:36 Dragons’ Den: the untold story
21:55 Going viral for 3 weeks and rejecting 60 investors
25:50 Unconventional hiring philosophy
32:15 Content creation strategy: 25 posts per day
39:57 Diversifying revenue beyond TikTok
41:37 Meta ads, email marketing and event strategy
43:50 Why Lucy’s never read a business book
44:23 Goldman Sachs 10KSB program recommendation
Richard Hill [00:01:00]:
Lucie, welcome to the eCom@One podcast, the triple two, the 222nd episode. For those that maybe have been living under a rock and don't use their phone, maybe introduce yourself and the story of Hair Syrup.
Lucie [00:01:14]:
Okay. Hi everyone. Also so weird because when you told me that I was episode 222 this morning, that's actually my angel number. So I think, I don't know, I'm I'm into all of that stuff, so I think that's a sign. Yeah, so I'm Lucy, and if you don't know me or Hair Syrup, I'm sure that after you've heard me speak for 20 minutes and your phones have listened to it, you are going to see a lot of Hair Syrup in the next couple of days. You said that you can't— you Googled me once and now you can't get away from it.
Richard Hill [00:01:45]:
That is it. Every night now I'm Hair Syrup, Hair Syrup, Hair Syrup.
Lucie [00:01:48]:
We post 25 times a day on TikTok as well. That doesn't help. Um, yeah, so I'm Lucie. I founded Hair Syrup 5 years ago. We're a hair care brand essentially, and we sell a range of natural hair products. Um, we used to just sell oils, but now we've kind of dipped our toes into other, other products. But I started the business 5 years ago, and you— it's completely unrecognisable. So when I started it, I was in my second year, um, at Warwick University, and It basically started like a lot of classic entrepreneurial tales that you hear.
Lucie [00:02:26]:
It really started because I had a lot of problems with my hair and scalp that I couldn't find a solution for. The haircare market back then was tiny. I mean, it's growing, you know, pretty unprecedented right now year on year, but it was really small back in kind of 2017, 2018. And I couldn't really find anything to help with my hair. So I started researching into natural hair care and ended up making my own out of a student kitchen. So before I even thought about selling these, I was literally hand mixing them. I always compare it to— I was like Walter White in my student kitchen, just like oils here, everything. Um, and I used to decanter them into— I bought from a 99p bargain store somewhere, those ketchup and mustard bottles.
Lucie [00:03:14]:
It's actually really funny because they're not dissimilar to the shapes that we use now. And then, yeah, I'd use them. So I used them for about 18 months. I transformed my hair. Never ever in a million years did I think that my finding in life would be selling hair oils. So never ever thought of, you know, commercializing them. But I— it all— there was a few strange twists of fate which meant that I made a TikTok video um, when I first downloaded the app about summer of 2020. And I'd have been sent home— well, I went home from uni because it was all online, so I was living back home with my parents.
Lucie [00:03:49]:
I was really bored, and hair care was a big thing on the app. Everyone had had botched at-home hair care haircuts because all the salons were shut during COVID Yeah, I think we're all familiar with those, or they just had a dodgy bleach job, or they were just trying to sort their hair out in general. So hair care was a big thing and I thought, oh, this is quite cool. I could make a video about this because I've had a big hair transformation. And if you look on my page, you'll see what my hair used to look like. And I made a video, took about 2 days to make the 60-second video because I didn't know what I was doing. I'd never used social media that way before. And then I posted this video, woke up in the morning and it had 600,000 views and everyone in my comment section was just like, oh, please, can you sell me a bottle of this stuff? This looks great.
Lucie [00:04:33]:
I need some of that oil. What's your PayPal? My hair looks exactly like yours, I need that. And the intention of the video was, of course, not to soft launch a hair oil. It was just to talk about my hair journey. So naturally, I ignored every single one of those comments and went about my life for the next 4 or 5 months. Loads of things happened in between. And then we kind of got to a point where I said, okay, after lots of strange occurrences, it was like people often say, oh, how did you come up with the idea? How would you come up with a business idea?. And I always say to people, I didn't come up with the idea.
Lucie [00:05:08]:
The idea came to me and was just knock, knock, knocking until I finally said, okay, we'll sell it then. So I thought I might sell 10 bottles. That was the initial plan. I put a few hundred quid into it at the beginning and thought, if I'm— if I sell 10 bottles of this, then I've broke even. And I sold those 10 bottles and have since sold many more. And it's just been the craziest 5 years. I always say you could make 10 Netflix 30-long series about my life over the last 5 years. It's just been absolutely insane.
Lucie [00:05:43]:
And now I'm here. So, uh, it was all a bit of a big happy accident. Um, but that's Hair Syrup in a nutshell, and that's me.
Richard Hill [00:05:52]:
So unbelievable. So from an idea just to sort your own hair out, basically, and then here we are now. Just give the guys a feel for the scale of the business now.
Lucie [00:06:01]:
Yeah, so we're, we've grown into an 8-figure business now. So we're one of, we own quite a significant chunk of the UK hair oil market now. We're stocked in Boots, lots of the big retailers, and we're one of the, in September of 2025, we got ranked as the most viral haircare brand on the whole of TikTok. This is globally against every big big hair brands you can possibly think of, we came number 1, and we're always in like the top 3, the top 5. So we definitely know how to keep that momentum going. So yeah, we're like one of the top haircare sellers on TikTok Shop, and we're moving and expanding internationally now. So over the next 2 years, we think that with the right partnerships and distribution channels, we could, we could be building something quite big.
Richard Hill [00:06:54]:
So from student dorms, I need to have a word with my son. He is still Yeah, about £300 a month. Um, so student, one bottle for yourself, and now we're sitting here, um, targeting 10 million, 8 figures. That's a lot of hair syrup, isn't it? That's a lot. I mean, how much is a typical.
Lucie [00:07:15]:
Order? Um, our average order value is about £29. So people normally buy 2 bottles, um, but Sometimes they'll buy, you know, accessories, shampoo brushes, but typically, yeah, about £29. About £29, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:07:31]:
So £10 million divided by £29, anybody? That is a serious, serious business. And that's all in how many years is that?
Lucie [00:07:38]:
Well, I call it 5 years because it— I did start selling it in 2020, but if anyone wants to look on my Instagram right now, you can actually— I think I posted it yesterday, a photo of Hair Syrup when I first started it, and you can see how I used to make the oil. So it was literally like measuring spoons and a tiny, you know, measuring jug and 1-liter measuring jug, and that's how it was made. So yeah, it's, it's, I don't know if I can count that as a business. First year and a half.
Richard Hill [00:08:11]:
So a year and a half sort of doing a few bits and doing a few things out.
Lucie [00:08:15]:
And I mean, we were making quite a lot of money, to be fair, but you know, it was really tiny for the first 2 years, and it was out of a conservatory, and I was still in uni. It was when I graduated, really, and got my first business premises in 2022 that things started to really take off for the business. Because before that, it was, it was there, but it was a little, yeah.
Richard Hill [00:08:40]:
Just a little thing. Start getting serious sort of a year or so in.
Lucie [00:08:43]:
Yeah, exactly. And yeah, exactly. And then that's when things started to ramp up.
Richard Hill [00:08:47]:
So obviously, a few years in, and you've fairly famously went on Dragon's Den. And that's where I sort of became aware of the brand and yourself and what you're doing. I think it'd be good to chat about that sort of, you know, would you recommend going on programmes like Dragon's Den?
Lucie [00:09:05]:
Oh, I always get asked this question. And I've got quite a funny story because if anyone's familiar with Dragon's Den, when they asked me to go on, they thought it would be a great clashing of two worlds between Gen Z and, you know, the kind of older small-c conservative traditional business shows. Um, they wanted to see how it would all fuse, and, uh, fuse it did. Uh, so anyway, I think it really depends. I always get asked by people. So I went on there eventually, um, with just the sole intention of— I didn't— I wasn't— I'm not even, you know, even this year I don't even think I'm going to be taking any investment anyway. I don't need to raise. Um, so it wasn't— I didn't go on there.
Lucie [00:09:48]:
I didn't even really, to be honest, this was nearly 2 years ago now when I filmed the actual pitch. Um, so a lot of people don't realize that the day after I went on the show, this guy come up to me on a local supermarket and said, oh my God, she must be knackered. And I said, what? And he said, oh, you've traveled all the way down. How are you here? You're on TV at 9 o'clock last night. And I was like, yeah, I filmed this like a year ago. Um, but yeah, no, so Anyway, um, they asked me to go on and I was like, you know what, this will be— it's just 3.
Richard Hill [00:10:18]:
So they approached you, did they?
Lucie [00:10:20]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at the time I was a bit— a lot of people told me not to go on because they said, you don't, you don't— what would you use the money for? You don't need money. You're not really in a position to take on investment anyway. And I said, yeah, but it's 3 million people viewing my product. It's good advertising. We can do lots of content around it, which is the reason why a lot of people go on there. But expectation management is very important. And if you speak to other brands who've been on Dragon's Den, they'll tell you the same.
Lucie [00:10:47]:
So mine was a very special case because when I went on, I got rejected by all of the dragons. There's a lot of stuff you don't see on the show. Obviously, everyone's, you know, probably knows this, you know, in this room that TV is what it is. It's not— it's there for entertainment. So I was in that den for 3 and a half hours, and then they take 10 minutes of those 3 and a half hours and put some dramatic music on it, and it's all quite crazy. But there was a lot of controversy, deliberate controversy, in my episode, um, around a deal that I was offered, and then the other dragons. And there was a lot of drama. It was very dramatized, and it actually wasn't really like that when I was in the den.
Lucie [00:11:27]:
But anyway, so, um, there was a lot of controversy around the episode in general because I was 24. I'd built the biggest business, because I think when I went on there I was doing £4 million a year, and Dragon's Den had never— well, from what I got told anyway, that was the biggest, most profitable business that had ever been on the show. But yet when you see how they treated me on camera, yeah, yeah, they were scathing. And you think you've got businesses who go on there and they've made a, you know, 3-year climbing loss, yeah, and they get 6 offers. So it didn't really make sense to the public. They thought This is an up-and-coming brand, started from nothing. Why are they being like this towards her? And that's why it got so much media attention. And then we made a big marketing campaign off the back of it.
Lucie [00:12:14]:
And one of my favorite stories is— and so people ask, oh, should I go on it? And I just say, well, it kind of depends what you're going to do with it and if it's on brand for you to do anything at all. Because we went— I went on, I got rejected by all of the dragons. And then we made a huge— and we still do it now. We just absolutely milk it. It's nearly a year on, and we're doing a big— keep an eye on our Instagram tomorrow because tomorrow is actually an anniversary of when I went on Dragon's Den. So we'll be doing another thing, a huge giveaway tomorrow based around Dragon's Den.
Richard Hill [00:12:49]:
I think it's brilliant. You know, as you've said, you know, you went on. Yeah. You know, they didn't invest. You know, some controversy around Tuca's sort of offer. And then, you know, and it was cut back. But ultimately you went on there doing circa £4 million, making £1.2 million a year net, net, net profit, not gross profit, net profit. So very, very unique.
Richard Hill [00:13:08]:
And then obviously didn't get investment, but you obviously got however many eyeballs on the brand. So the people that are maybe listening and with us, you know, obviously there's usually an upside to things like that if you're willing to sort of lean into them.
Lucie [00:13:22]:
Yeah, and it was the best thing that could ever have happened to me. And, you know, Stephen Bartlett's been a bit of controversy at the moment, but, um, he said to me after I came out the van, because I was really upset, I didn't really understand what had gone on. It was all— it was, it was a lot. Unless you've been through the experience, you don't really understand, um, and it's hard to explain sometimes. But he said, this will be the best thing that's ever happened to you. He said, we've just done— you don't see what's happened here, but we've just done you the biggest favor of your life by projecting you. And I said, what? And he's like, Lucy, if you went to any VC, you would have money thrown at you. He's like, do you understand that? Of course, at the time, no, I didn't.
Lucie [00:14:01]:
And now I do. But I said no. He said, it's— we've done you a favor here. You can use this to your advantage. And when you, you know, calm down, the adrenaline goes, you'll see that this is a positive. And he said, I'll speak to you in a year's time. And anyway, of course, it was career-making for me. It made my brand.
Lucie [00:14:18]:
It's made my personal career, personal brand. And it's just the best thing. That rejection is the best thing that could have ever happened to me, you know, and could have ever happened to the brand, and has given me probably decades worth of content to talk about. But what I will say is someone said to me before, a couple of months after I've been on Dragon's Den, they said, oh my gosh, I've got an ex-brand and I'm gonna go on Dragon's Den. And I really hope that I get 6 nos like you did so that I can go viral like you did. And I said, well, I didn't go into Dragon's Den hoping for 6 nos. I certainly, you know, that's not— that wasn't my intention. And so my advice to anyone is, if you're gonna go on, go on with, you know, clear, pure intentions, and don't try and outsmart these people.
Lucie [00:15:10]:
Because if you go in with a game plan they're just gonna— yeah. And if you go on thinking you've got some big PR spin in your mind, don't bother, because you're not in control at all, and you're not in control of the edit. So if you're gonna go on, do it for the right reasons and not because you're trying to engineer something, because you have no idea how it's going to go. I spent 9 months after the episode had been filmed, and I had no idea whether they were going to make me look like an angel, the devil. I had no idea what they were going to put in, what they were going to show. So I didn't know.
Richard Hill [00:15:45]:
You didn't see the edit until it went live?
Lucie [00:15:46]:
I didn't see the edit until it went live, and I had no idea what angle they'd taken. I didn't know if they'd made me look really stupid, if they'd made them look really nasty, them look nice, me look rude, because you don't know. So I would say, you know, expectation manage. Um, and it was a very unique set of circumstances for me. But when I would, you know, any— most press is good press.
Richard Hill [00:16:12]:
So, so with not knowing what the edit would be, were you sort of ready social-wise with different angles? They said that if it came out in a different way, maybe, you know, you were— you ready with a certain take from a social media point?
Lucie [00:16:25]:
To be honest, no. Um, but again, that's what comes with the advantage of me having gone in with such a naivety and such an innocence because I went in there and I was just completely myself. So I said they can edit me, and if they edit me and make me look really untrue to character, I just intended on, you know, correcting it and saying, actually, yeah. But the general idea was that at the end of the day, whatever they made me look, I didn't get any— I didn't get any offers. So I thought this could be a public humiliation because with this big brand and everyone knows Hair Syrup on TikTok, and this could be really embarrassing, so we need to laugh about it before everyone else laughs about it. And because we took the mick out of the whole thing and I took the mick out of myself and I really leaned into a lot of these narratives that if I hadn't leaned into them, you know, calling it a trend, if you— if I hadn't leaned into that, then I could have faced a lot of scrutiny and questioning around it. So we kind of just made it all a big joke. And when you do that, it makes it really difficult.
Lucie [00:17:34]:
And anyone who would come in our comment section and say, you have no idea what you're talking about, you know, you're so stupid and you don't deserve to run a business because you're not— whatever they were saying, everyone in the comments was either like, well, obviously not, mate, because like, how big are the businesses? Or B, it was like, well, relax, it's a joking video that they've made to a, to a TikTok sound. It's not that, it's not that big a deal, um, just chill. So we, that's kind of what we leaned into. We leaned into the humor side of things, um, but they were interesting conversations because you're actually not supposed to do that, um. So I had a lot of interesting conversations with the BBC before my episode aired. Really?
Richard Hill [00:18:17]:
Yes.
Lucie [00:18:17]:
Their legal team. Okay. And I had to explain to them what the sad hamster meme was, and they thought that I was calling the dragons a hamster. And I was like, no, you don't get it. And I was trying to explain to this woman on the phone, and she was like, what does this mean that you've posted? And I was like, well, it's just— it means that I'm the hamster. No, I'm sorry, I just don't think we can— I don't, I don't like this. I don't think this is acceptable. I said, well, it's the trend.
Lucie [00:18:43]:
It's okay, I'm not offending anyone. But it was so different for them because they'd never had a brand like mine on, and they— I think they thought, oh, this is good, we'll attract a new audience, but hadn't really accounted for— yeah. So the idea was what we always say, and when I talk about it, I say, well, they trolled me on TV on the, on the kind of old-fashioned, you know, not old-fashioned, but sort of small c conservative, like business show. So I thought, well, I'll do the same to you, but on— yeah, yeah, on TikTok.
Richard Hill [00:19:16]:
So I think, um, a lot of that will resonate with, you know, I think obviously you've gone on there and then obviously, um, you're getting a lot of press, mixed press, you know, and you must be used to— you must have a very, very, very thick skin in terms of, um, you know, like you said about your comment section. Of course, for every 400 great comments, there's usually one or two I've had a few myself, not, um, but for the guys in the audience and the people that are listening, you know, what would you say to, you know, sort of putting yourself out there? I think obviously more and more brands, more and more marketing departments, sort of founder-led, putting more content out with their founders and their marketing teams and so forth. And ultimately sometimes come across some, how can we put it, knobheads.
Lucie [00:19:57]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:19:58]:
Um, what's your take on that? What would you say to the people that I know? There's a few people that are doing a lot of personal branding or pushing the personal branding in the room.
Lucie [00:20:06]:
Well, I read this thing the other day and it said something like, if you haven't got a Reddit hate thread, then you're not working hard enough.
Richard Hill [00:20:13]:
We need one of those guys.
Lucie [00:20:15]:
Yeah, but no, it's an inevitable part of— I mean, we just get— I get some of the most— we read these comments sometimes and you just think, who is this person? How have they— or for me, I just think, how have you got so much time on your hands? Um, ultimately the question is, why do you care so much? Um, so I, I'm almost— it used to really, really bother me. Like, it would keep me up at night if I had a viral video and then I had some hate comments. I, I wouldn't be able to sleep. I'd be so anxious. I'd be looking at my phone, refresh, refresh, refresh. Um, and now I just have to read these comments and just— what, I mean, what, what, what do you even say? Yeah, at the end of the day, 99% of the time you go on their profiles and it's anonymous anyway, and you think, well, you're doing that for a reason, you're on an anonymous profile. Um, But there's not really— to be honest, I don't read a lot of the stuff. When I went on Dragons' Den, I did not read the comment sections for about 3 weeks, even though they were all quite positive.
Lucie [00:21:18]:
I just feel that it's too emotionally draining. And we always just say, if you're having any stick on social media— excuse me— and I know a lot of founders who've been canceled or like whatever has happened on TikTok. And they find themselves, and then they think, oh, do you know what, I'm gonna leave my phone and I'm gonna come to the cinema, I'm gonna do this. And suddenly you find yourself in the real world and you're like, oh, actually nobody in here even knows who I am. Or some people might know, but they probably haven't seen that bad video that someone's made about me. And it's nice to just— I know that phrase, to go outside and touch grass, but genuinely remember that this is not the real world. And even if you've got 100,000 people seeing a video and loads of people commenting negatively, that is not the real world. Online, the online world is not the real world.
Lucie [00:22:08]:
It's not representative of how people feel about you and who you are as a person. What I— the only thing I struggle with, um, and, you know, just to give everyone a bit of a heads up, is I never intended to be some— I know people do it deliberately now because it's a marketing tactic, but I never set out to be a founder-led brand or anything. Um, but it's natural. It's how the brand naturally evolved because the product products were based on my hair. Um, but I would just say that, um, it's the— it's something that you just have to accept is going to happen. Um, if you're putting yourself out there as the founder of a brand, it's so much easier. We have comments when we, you know, we had to do a price increase the other day, and the comments, and it's like, oh, you need to explain yourself. And I commented back off my personal page and I just said Listen, like, our food, you know, our weekly food shop has gone up by 40% in the last 5 years.
Lucie [00:23:05]:
I've increased my prices twice, but it's so much easier for people. They're not going to go and shout at Tesco because no one's listening. But if you come to me or Hair Syrup, you're speaking to a real person. And I think a lot of people in the world at the moment feel like there's a lot of bad stuff going on, and they feel very out of control, and people's lives are really difficult, and to try and get that sense of control over something or let out some frustration about, you know, the fact that everything's so expensive nowadays, it's much easier to come and have a go at me because I've made my products 10% more expensive in the last X amount of years than it is to— yeah, you know, there's always going.
Richard Hill [00:23:44]:
To be one or two, isn't there?
Lucie [00:23:45]:
Yeah. And you are an easy target and you are a human being and you are someone for you're not just this big body, this big government, or this big corporation. You are someone for someone to say, I don't like that, and I'm angry about this, and I'm— I want someone to listen to me and hear me about it. And unfortunately, it— that it becomes— you become— you're in the firing line for that. So it's not for everyone, to be honest. It wouldn't— I don't think it would be for me in an ideal world, but that's how the brand's evolved.
Richard Hill [00:24:18]:
Um, or 25 TikToks a day, you're gonna get some stick, aren't you?
Lucie [00:24:22]:
Oh, 1 million percent. And a lot of people, you know, they don't— they— one thing that does make me— that I've had to really come to terms with in the last year that I found really difficult, to be honest, um, and just mainly because of my personality type, I found it really difficult getting to grips with the fact that so many people feel that they know me on a really personal level and they know loads of stuff about me. You know, I have people come up to me and they say all sorts of things and I'm just standing there thinking, oh my God, how does everyone know this about me? But of course, of course they know this about me. I'm posting all this stuff online. But it's, it's that it was a, it was a strange thing to get used to because I'm generally quite a, I'm quite a small circle, private person. Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:25:11]:
Um, but it's funny that, isn't it? I know a lot of people in a similar, you know, they're very— they're in the business side, and they're like yourself, very much, um, you know, doing a lot of content, but when you meet them, they're actually really quite quiet and private.
Lucie [00:25:24]:
And yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I— you see my real personality on TikTok, but just in general, like, I'm quite— I've got quite a tight circle, and I've always been like this. I'm quite selective about who I have in my life and things like that, and Now it kind of feels— people feel, lots of people, millions of people feel that they have very intimate access to me, um, which is fine, you know. But, uh, it— I'm okay with it now, but it was very strange when.
Richard Hill [00:25:52]:
I— I think, I think I read something where you went to an event, this is probably 6 or 8 months ago, and you had to take security with you, or we had security there.
Lucie [00:25:59]:
Yeah, yeah, we've had a few things, um, and again, it's, it's— I, I've I've reflected on a lot of things that have happened over the last year and almost, you know, tried to kind of take some learnings and responsibility from it. Because it's like, you know, sometimes, you know, people do things that are not okay, but— and also, you know, overstepping a boundary. But also, I think parasocial relationships are something that people are going to become a lot more interested in over the next few years, especially, you know, I think the law and things like that around trolling and any type of parasocial relationships, positive or negative, are quite interesting. But we've had some experiences, um, like I said, that's probably what you read about because, you know, that was in the news and stuff. But as I've reflected on it, I think, well, people don't know the difference between people's brains. Have we actually evolved enough to know the difference between real life and social media. So when people see us on social media, speak to us on social media, feel like they're so close to us, they forget that when we see them in real life— yeah, no, sorry, actually, whoa, like, you can't, you can't, yeah, do this, or you can't behave like that. Um, but again, it's— I, I genuinely don't think it's even anyone's fault.
Lucie [00:27:18]:
I think it's just we're going to take a while as a, I don't know, generation or whatever to be able to differentiate between, yeah, I know this person on TikTok, but I also— they don't know me and I don't know them, and I need to respect that they're also a real person with, you know, their own life. But yeah, I know we have had, we have had a few things happen, but like I said, I take responsibility for a lot of the things because, you know, maybe I'm not good enough at setting those boundaries and, you know.
Richard Hill [00:27:54]:
Yeah, well, thank you for that. I think, um, you know, it's inevitable. You're all going to get trolls. You're all going to get comments. I can remember doing my first webinar and the first comment— I came off, I was super nervous. I came off and the guy, one guy said, this was the worst webinar I've ever been on. And I was like, really?
Lucie [00:28:12]:
Yeah.
Richard Hill [00:28:12]:
The next guy said, this was great. And the next guy is a client of ours for about 11 years. So you're always going to get one, I think, you know. So change of direction then. Obviously fastest growing beauty brand in the UK 2025. Like most verticals, crowded space, lots of people doing a lot of things. You know, how do you stand out? Obviously you've got the social media side. Anything else away from that?
Lucie [00:28:38]:
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, people often say to me, what's your USP? And it's a it's the million-dollar question. Why do some brands, you know, why did Gymshark make it when so many didn't? It's sometimes you just don't really know. I think sometimes brands just have something about them, and I think Hair Syrup does have that something about it. But that's probably not useful to everyone, so I'll be a bit more specific. But where I think I've done— where I think the brand's done well in a crowded market is, and I recommend this to everyone, this is my biggest piece of business advice in all sorts of different ways. I always say to do one thing well. So you see beauty brands, haircare brands, and they want to do everything and be everything and try to cater to everyone and offer this and offer that.
Lucie [00:29:30]:
And I want to sell shampoo and I want to sell this and I want to do that. And we're going to sell to men and we're going to do this and we're going to make sure that everyone's catered to. But actually, I looked at it completely differently and I thought, I want to be the biggest brand. Well, I didn't think this at the beginning, obviously, but when the business started evolving, I thought, I've got some really good products here. And I knew they were really good products and everyone loved them, you know, especially— it gets different now, we sell millions and millions of bottles. But when you're only selling a few and every single person who's buying one— I'm talking like 3 people in one year maybe would email me in the beginning I didn't like this product, but everyone just loved them and they are amazing formulas if anyone's used them. Um, so the products are great, but I really honed in on the pre-wash oil. It wasn't just hair oil, it was the pre-wash hair oil.
Lucie [00:30:19]:
And I was like, I want to be— I want to sell the best pre-wash hair oils and I want to sell different pre-wash hair oils and I want to make sure that they all do really good different things. So we were really thoughtful and conscientious about any sort of new product I was bringing out. And I've made— I've bought a few products out, and when I've deviated away from that original thing and they flopped— so I understand now, okay, I know what works, I know what people like, and this is where the trust has been built between myself and the consumer. So we— that's kind of how we work our NPD. We'll take like a— one of our top lines and then branch the NPD off that top line because you've already got that trust there. People like the product, and it's so much easier than trying to say, oh, I want to bring out a banana shampoo and conditioner, and people just go, we don't sell anything to do with bananas. And it's, it just creates, it's just so much harder to market. Whereas when we bring anything out that's to do with Rapunzel, because people already love the oil, it's a natural progression then.
Lucie [00:31:17]:
And it's such an easier sale and such an easier customer acquisition because they already love the oils. They think, well, I'm gonna love this too. And then of course We spend months, 18 months is our usually our minimum of bringing out a new product, which a lot of beauty brands, you know, they don't even like— you get beauty brand founders, they don't even know what's in their products. They don't even know what works, how it works. They get it white labeled. And we really care about the products and the product development process and the how well the functionality of the products, how well they work. We're not just pushing some trending crap out there because we think, oh well, we've got a big brand name so we'll sell that and we can push it. Like, we don't do that.
Lucie [00:31:59]:
It's all extremely deliberate, well thought out. So the main way that we cut through the noise from the rest of the competitors is, like I said, being really hyper-focused on that one sector, which is the pre-wash sector.
Richard Hill [00:32:14]:
Yeah.
Lucie [00:32:14]:
Um, and also this— our social media, you know, is unrivaled really at the moment. But yeah, which gives us a massive USP, of course. The packaging again, people love it. The, the products are 100% natural. So I think we've taken as well, just in terms of the product itself, we've taken a sort of natural skin and hair care has always been seen as, oh, that just doesn't work. It's just overpriced. And doesn't do anything, and it has to be synthetic, and it has to be this, it has to be that. And we've taken that, and people would always think, oh, it's, it's hippie, it's this, it's not, doesn't work.
Lucie [00:32:54]:
You've got all these connotations around it, but actually we've taken these amazing natural ingredients, just made them trendy and put them in some trendy packaging and sold it in a— yeah, yeah, in a trendy way. And suddenly it's, oh cool.
Richard Hill [00:33:06]:
So stuck to the roots of the core of exceptional products, all about the product. And you've got these key products that are sort of the products that have meant that you've done so well, and you're sort of branching off those rather than going with some crazy ideas. But that said, have you got any sort of ideas maybe further down the line to add not just hair syrup or other business ideas around sort of many other products?
Lucie [00:33:31]:
Yeah, so we have actually. I mean, we're 5 years in now, so I think we're at a stage where we can comfortably move into different directions. And when I knew we could is because customers were asking for it. They were saying, I love this product so much, why don't you make— you know, we sell one product that's really good if you've got flaky scalp. A lot of people use it if they've got dandruff. It's a peppermint oil. And people say, this is just— I couldn't live without this product. I always struggle to find a shampoo.
Lucie [00:33:59]:
Can you turn this oil and make a shampoo out of it? So I kind of knew we were at that stage when every day in my comments people were asking. So when I'm talking about the kind of close intimate relationships we have with, with people, there are pros and cons to it, but ultimately there's such an open dialogue between us that we always know what they want and they're always feeding back. So sometimes you have to read a lot of the comments and just think, okay, well, I'm not, I'm not gonna action that, but it's still— because it's just a comment. But when I was getting these, I thought, okay, um, but now that we've cemented ourselves in that particular market. Now I think what we're doing is we're taking the lines and all the products, very functional. So if we take the mint condition, for example, which is peppermint one, I'm going to bring out a range around that, but it's going to be about detoxing shampoo and, you know, for an itchy scalp. And then we're going to bring, you know, one out specifically for breakage and bond repair, things like that. And because all that— so we're going off the functionalities So, I'm one of those annoying people who always has a million business ideas going around in my brain.
Lucie [00:35:10]:
But they warned me on Dragon's Den that— and I think one of them said to me, "Oh, you remind me of— you concern me because you remind me of the same sort of person as Stephen Bartlett might have been in his younger years." and they said, you seem like the sort of person who might just chase after the next shiny thing, and we did say that. Yeah, we advise not to do that because you've got something really good here and you need to focus, focus on it. Um, and for a while I was like, oh, I could do this, I could do that. Um, and then, yeah, so I'm— but at the moment it's just everything is being blocked out for just to focus a million percent, and that's what they advised me to do, and That's what I've done naturally anyway.
Richard Hill [00:35:55]:
So yeah, ultimately working on new products that, as you said right at the beginning, that maybe sit under some of the bestsellers, but they're maybe more for the scalp, maybe more shampoo and so forth. So I think that'll resonate with a lot of the listeners when we're thinking about lifetime value, acquisition costs, average order values. We said at the beginning with £30 or so, but obviously when you've got 3 or 4 products to add to that, you'll be able to shift that. Well, Lucy, we are vastly running out of time, so I'm going to fire the last couple of questions at you. So obviously we're at the AI versus human day. So what are you guys using AI for sort of operationally within HairSurf?
Lucie [00:36:36]:
Oh gosh. Well, we try to avoid using it on our social media pages. We've done it a few times and have, you know, haven't been well received. Um, because I don't know, I think people are just used to us doing a lot of real stuff, and they, you know, people have, you know, we— and to be honest, like, the first time we did one of those AI-generated, uh, icons or whatever they were trending last year, I had no idea really of the environmental impact and, um, stuff like that. So we were swiftly corrected So I thought, okay, we won't be doing that. But behind the scenes, we integrate it a lot into our customer service, into our— what's it called? Oh God, I don't actually do any of this stuff.
Richard Hill [00:37:26]:
Your tickets and so forth, like your— Oh yeah, yeah.
Lucie [00:37:29]:
But also our inventory. Inventory, yeah. We use it a lot. Warehousing. Yeah, we use it a lot. And I know that our marketing agencies and, and people who we work with lean into it a lot. But we don't do— we, yeah, we don't do too much. But then we outsource most of our stuff anyway.
Lucie [00:37:50]:
Like, it's only— there's only two of us, uh, well, uh, two of us who do, um, the main Hair Surat page. And then we've got another social media assistant who does, um, our other page and bits and pieces. But, you know, we're very lean in-house and we just outsource the majority of stuff anyway. So yeah, but yeah, we're not overly tech. Well, I'm certainly not overly techy, but.
Richard Hill [00:38:13]:
Yeah, but very good on the socials.
Lucie [00:38:15]:
Yeah. Someone laughed at me. I said, I'm not really into technology. And they said, are you joking? I said, well, there's a difference between being able to make content.
Richard Hill [00:38:22]:
Yeah.
Lucie [00:38:22]:
So I actually think that's more about creativity. I say this to people all the time as well. People say to Lucy and I, they say, how do you come up with so many ideas and how do you make so many videos? How is it humanly possible? And I honestly— I hope I don't offend anyone, but I honestly look at people and say that to me, I think, are you in the right job? Because this to me just comes so naturally. And, um, yeah, having ideas is the best part of the job. And if you can't think of— if you're, you know, running a social media agency but you're thinking, oh, I can't think of one TikTok idea today, then I don't know. I mean, it's the best part and most natural, pleasurable part of the job.
Richard Hill [00:39:01]:
You mean you flow when you're doing that?
Lucie [00:39:03]:
Yeah, yeah, I'm in a flow.
Richard Hill [00:39:04]:
That's why you can bang them out sort of thing?
Lucie [00:39:06]:
Yeah, it's difficult for me sometimes though, because I do about 7 hours of meetings every day, so I've got one type of my brain and then you.
Richard Hill [00:39:14]:
Got to flip into that creative.
Lucie [00:39:15]:
Yeah, I think it's the left side is a creative side, so I'm kind of getting between the two, which is difficult.
Richard Hill [00:39:20]:
But yeah, well, thank you for that. Last question from me, well, maybe two actually. I know we're a little bit over time, but I'm getting the eyeball, so So on Dragons' Den, you talked about that, obviously at the time, obviously a couple of years ago now, you know, that gives 49%, rings a bell, that TikTok was 49%. And obviously we talk a lot on the podcast and with our clients around that sort of split, you know, and security around the different channels. Maybe talk to us about that sort of marketing mix now, where the sales come from, you know, and how maybe what you've done in the last year to sort of mix that up a bit more.
Lucie [00:39:57]:
Yeah, so it looks very different to how it did almost 2 years ago now when I went on there, and the Dragons will be happy to hear, um, because Steven Bartlett said something like, oof, we're gonna need a lifeboat— life raft. I don't know if you guys saw that little viral clip, um, when I told him that we were taking 49% of our revenue from TikTok Shop. Again, they were right, can't argue with them. We now do less than 23% of our revenue comes from TikTok Shop. And the rest is made up mix of B2B, D2C. And we started stocking, well, I don't know, Amazon, whether that's a retailer or who knows if it's D2C. I don't really know what it's classed as. So we do Amazon and now, yeah, the rest of our revenue now is made up from— we've, we've— so our website now outperforms TikTok Shop., which is exactly where it should be.
Lucie [00:40:53]:
Exactly. Um, because of loads of different reasons. And yeah, how have we done that? Interesting. We've done— to be honest, a lot of it's come down to focusing on Meta, um, and really focusing on— we do a lot of gift with purchase, really simple basic stuff, giveaways, um, exclusive website items. So not listing things on TikTok Shop, or listing 500 on TikTok Shop but 5,000 on the website, so when it sells out you have to come and shop directly. Um, what else? Email marketing, that's been huge. SMS marketing we've done this year. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't pay for a single ad, and I scaled to a couple of million before I even paid for any ads.
Lucie [00:41:37]:
So that was all a bit of a minefield to me. But yeah, really leaning into Meta ads And also what's really helped in my opinion, getting us, getting, building our DTC and establishing us, establishing, establishing ourselves as a brand outside of TikTok is doing a lot of in-person events. Yeah. And I think a lot of press has helped boost that as well. And but, you know, 49% sounds a lot, but you've got a lot of these big beauty brands. They do 80%, some of them do over 90%. So 49 wasn't great, but it is nowhere near, yeah, what a lot of brands are doing. So we've, you know, we're down to, like I said, less than 23.
Richard Hill [00:42:18]:
So you very much sliced it up now, less reliant on one, but still very much doing a lot on TikTok.
Lucie [00:42:23]:
Yeah, and TikTok's become more of a brand awareness. It's become a touchpoint for us more so rather than, uh, necessarily a revenue a revenue driver.
Richard Hill [00:42:36]:
Still getting on the lives yourself then?
Lucie [00:42:39]:
Oh, I don't ever really have time, to be honest with you. Um, people say all the time, and you know, people constantly push, like, I think everyone hears it, don't they? So much pressure on founders. And I feel sorry for people as well who just don't want to be in front of the camera, and they're just like, God, I sell a good product, I've got a marketing team, I don't want to stand on TikTok Live, I don't want to be in the videos. And I totally get that with people. Um, but yeah, they would say, oh, you're the founder, you'll sell so much more. And I'm like, look, I've got so much, I can't just switch from one thing to another. Um, so I do a little bit sometimes, but I'm— I've moved. I don't live in Pembrokeshire anymore, which is where the warehouse is as well.
Richard Hill [00:43:17]:
So no, I think that will resonate with a lot of the guys in here that are getting asked to go on, um, socials, TikToks, webinars, and video and all sorts. I know we've I know there's one chap in here particularly that we have to drag on camera to do some stuff. But yeah, well, Lucy, it's been an absolute pleasure. As those that know, who've listened to a few of the podcasts, we like to finish every episode with a book or resource recommendation to our audience. What would you recommend? What's one of your go-to books maybe?
Lucie [00:43:50]:
I have a confession to make. Go on. I've never ever read a business book.
Richard Hill [00:43:56]:
Isn't that brilliant? Hey, 10 million, 10 million a year.
Lucie [00:43:59]:
Never read a book, a business book. I've never read a business book, so I don't have one to recommend. Good for you. But I tell you what, I did, um, I did a, a program, a business program. I don't know if people in the room might have heard of it. It's, um, Goldman Sachs 10KSB. So they did it with, uh, Said Business School, um, and it— I did that a lot at the end of last year. I finished literally— my graduation was like last week.
Lucie [00:44:23]:
Um, and it's kind of like a mini MBA is the best way I could describe it. So to get on the program, I think you need to have been trading for 3 years and, um, maybe have a quarter of a million turnover. Uh, so if that applies to anyone in this room, it was the best thing I've ever done as a business owner, apart from— well, it's on par with going on Dragon's Den. It's transformed a lot of things. So look into the 10KSB program if you qualify for it, because it's probably better than a lot books you're going to read. You're getting taught by, you know, Oxford University professors about every area of business— marketing, sales, finance, logistics, operations, everything. So I highly recommend doing that. Brilliant.
Richard Hill [00:45:05]:
We'll, um, link that up in the show notes. Well, thank you so much for coming down to see us in, um, not-so-funny Lincoln today. Round of applause for Lucy, everybody. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.
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