E213: Emma Derbyshire & Brittany Jarman

Richard Hill [00:00:04]: Welcome back to the eCom@One podcast. I'm Richard Hill and today I'm handing the reins over to two of our star strategists, Emma and Britt, who step in as hosts to tackle one of the hottest debates in E commerce right now. Agency versus in House. They'll kick things off by busting the us versus Them myth before sharing what really moves the needle in successful partnerships. And that's partnerships with a capital P. Spoiler alert. It all comes down to the crystal clear communication and genuine collaboration. Along the way, they'll draw on insights from a recent RX panel where Emma went head to head with three senior ECOM managers and reveals why none of them had a horror story to tell. Now, really, what surprised me the most was this. Three major retailers. All told, the single biggest factor in a successful partnership isn't price or fancy tools. It's communication conversation. Time and again, it came back to how well do we really talk to each other now? Whether you're exploring bringing back in House or dipping your toe in with freelancers, or wondering if it's time to lock arms with an agency partner, this episode will really help you map out the pros, the cons, and the right moment for each model. Stick around for their top tips on choosing the perfect fit for your next growth phase. Now, do me one quick favor. Hit the subscribe and follow button wherever you are listening to this one so you never miss an episode. Let's dive in.

Emma Derbyshire [00:01:32]: Before we start, I just want to address the elephant in the room. Yes, Britt and I are wearing the same outfit. Is this the first time it's happened? No. Did we say we needed to plan our outfit so that we're not wearing the same thing for the podcast today? Yes. Did we forget? Yes. So there we go. It's out there. Yes, we're wearing the same. Yes, it happens. Who cares? We both look great. Who wore it best can be in the comments for later. But more importantly, today we're going to have a chat about the very topical agency versus in House debate. I hate the fact that it's even a debate particularly, but we'll come on to it.

Brittany Jarman [00:02:12]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:02:14]: Seen loads of stuff on LinkedIn about recently. I spoke about it on a panel that IRX last week which we're going to chat a little bit about and just this whole, you know, pitting in house teams versus agencies where both come into play and can be used in different kind of ecom stores, growth journeys, ways to make it work. We'll summarize a little Bit about the panel that I spoke on at the event. Do we dive into a little bit about the. The panel and a bit of a panel overview?

Brittany Jarman [00:02:42]: Yeah. So Emma was on a panel with three other retailers. Was it last week. And then you were the only agency, so a little bit outnumbered, but it was really interesting. So I watched from the audience and was taking lots of notes, listening to what they had to say. So we thought it'd just be nice to discuss some of the topics that came up.

Emma Derbyshire [00:03:02]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:03:02]: How it impacts an agency and as well as what we've seen from working with brands, how it impacts them. Yeah. So I think one of the main topics that kept coming up in the debate was communication, and that whole communication piece.

Emma Derbyshire [00:03:18]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:03:18]: Where they were saying if it went wrong, it was because of communication. It went well. It was because of communication. There wasn't an awful lot about actual performance.

Emma Derbyshire [00:03:27]: No.

Brittany Jarman [00:03:27]: They would judge their agencies based purely on communication

Emma Derbyshire [00:03:32]: Which is interesting, because when we speak with prospects as well, and we get a lot of people coming to us because they've been burnt by agencies. And every time I are a pro, why, like, what was it about the agency? And nine out of ten times it's communication. I just think guys like so many agencies get a bad rap for poor communication. It's one of the most simple things. If you're good at what you do, it's such a shame to have the communication let you down. But I also do think that the communication needs to come from both sides. And this is something that I tried to get across on the panel was, of course, it's essential for an agency to communicate, but let's flip it round as well. We need clients to communicate well. We need to know what they're working on internally, what their goals are, what their kind of key categories they're focusing on are, or where they need to push. We need all of that communication, otherwise we can't do our job properly either. So I think it was interesting to hear their perspective and great actually to hear that something that we do really well. Communication is really, like, literally pivotal to their experience of agencies, but also for brands and those teams in house just to have a little think about, okay, if I was an agency, what would I need to know to be able to do my job properly? Because the amount of times that you have instances where, oh, if we just learned that from the client, if they'd just been a little bit, you know, more forward with that data or that little snippet of insight, we might have done things a little bit differently.

Brittany Jarman [00:04:52]: Yeah. Because we ask as much as we can. Like you said, communication is something we do really well. But there's sometimes things that you just don't know have gone on. Yeah. Where one of the things they talked about was being just in the office at that brand and there's conversations that happen between desks that we would never as an agency have any idea that that conversation has happened. We wouldn't even know to ask the question. We have no idea. So it really is. We've got to rely on the brands to, to tell us this and relay this to us. So it is definitely a two way street. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I'd like to think as an agency we are very good at communication because we know we've seen firsthand how much it impacts the performance as well. If we communicate really well with the brand then the it shows in the results and I guess we get what we need from them.

Emma Derbyshire [00:05:41]: Yeah. And it's important in house alone and as an agency alone as well. You know, as an in house marketing team. If you can't communicate amongst yourselves, there's a problem as an agency especially if you're. You're working across multiple solutions. But also if you're not, if you are just singular solution for that particular client, there's still multiples to stakeholders and I think, you know, you have to get that communication. Communication. Right. So seems really simple but so interesting that all three brands pinpointed that as like the most important thing when working with an agency and choosing an agency.

Brittany Jarman [00:06:15]: Yeah, definitely. So lots of different things were discussed on this panel but I think one of the. Another really interesting topic was the horror stories part of it. So I think what was probably most interesting and I think you agree is that only one of them actually had a horror story. I think they were probably expecting some really juicy things that happen at agencies. But there just wasn't actually anything that bad.

Emma Derbyshire [00:06:45]: No, I was ready for it. Like I had the boxing gloves on, I was outnumbered and I was ready to kind of, you know, fly the agency flag. Now I'm not saying that all agencies are perfect or even that ours is, you know, human error first and foremost.

Brittany Jarman [00:06:59]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:06:59]: Things do get missed in in house teams for freelancers or with agencies. Like we're all human but I was ready to, you know, represent the agency side but actually out of the. Because it was the moderator on the panel that actually had had a bit of a horror story.

Brittany Jarman [00:07:13]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:07:13]: With an agency which basically came down to a lack of accountability when they'd made a mistake, which is awful. Again, whether you're working in house or agency side or as a freelancer, accountability is so important.

Brittany Jarman [00:07:25]: Massive.

Emma Derbyshire [00:07:25]: But it was really great just to kind of hear them all be a bit like, oh, well, we don't really have any horror stories.

Brittany Jarman [00:07:31]: Yeah, it was enough.

Emma Derbyshire [00:07:32]: Yeah, it was really nice to hear because I think you do. You know, that's what's. That's what gets branded across LinkedIn. This is those horror stories that give agencies a bad name, but actually how many is happening?

Brittany Jarman [00:07:44]: How many of those things are actually happening?

Emma Derby [00:07:46]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:07:46]: On the regular.

Emma Derbyshire [00:07:47]: Yeah. And how many of the great experiences get written about on LinkedIn? It's a little bit like Trustpilot, isn't it? We're just using stuff, you know, restaurants always get a bad reviews and very rarely get the good ones. It's the bad experiences that people feel the need to kind of vent about online. And I think, yeah, agencies can get a pretty bad rap out of those three pretty significantly sized retailers. None of them. And they all worked with agencies, just to make that clear. And a lot of them had had experience of agencies in previous roles as well. So not just where they're working currently, none of them had horror stories. So no, you know, most of their experience was really positive. So I think that's a really great thing. It's a demonstration of how hybrid between in house and agency clearly works really well for them.

Brittany Jarman [00:08:29]: Yeah, they only had kind of nice things to say, really. And they did have the opportunity to say, oh, like they were anyway, in that exact instance.

Emma Derbyshire [00:08:38]: So I was ready for it.

Brittany Jarman [00:08:39]: Yeah. So the next topic that was discussed on the panel was collaboration with agencies and how an agency helps to actually upskill that in house team. One of the brands in particular said that they found that really, really valuable when they kind of would lean on their agency for that expertise. They saw them as the experts, they knew that they were the experts and then they thought, actually, we need some of that knowledge to be passed on to us. And there's a lot of agencies that don't do that. They kind of hold everything, really hold their cards close to their chest, don't give anything away, don't tell them what they're doing or anything like that. Which I think feeds into that communication piece, Media of Social as well. If you really communicate, you are essentially helping to upskill that in house team as well. But. Yeah, what was your thoughts on that topic?

Emma Derbyshire [00:09:26]: I think it's an interesting one. I can understand why some agencies might be a little bit Reluctant to knowledge share. I suppose there could potentially be that worry of if we, if we educate them too much, they're not going to need us anymore. Yeah, that's not the growth mindset. In my mind that should be adopted by either, adopted by either in house or agency side. And it works in multiple ways. Some agencies offer kind of consultancy and services. So that's the most obvious way that, that you could kind of upskill an in house team. And we've done that before here at Ecomone with clients. But yeah, it's really nice just to sit and be able to explain to someone in house who might be a more generalist marketer who doesn't have the specialisms but has a really keen interest. You know, why would we not want to share that knowledge? It shows that we want to work collaboratively. You know, we've all got. Ultimately, when you're working with an in house team, as an agency we have one goal and it's the same as theirs and that's growth. Or you know, it could be more specific than that. It's a specific KPI. It's growth in a certain area.

Brittany Jarman [00:10:24]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:10:24]: But the in house teams need the agency to hit that goal to make them look good and the agency teams want to hit that to kind of help their clients and build that kind of long lasting relationship. So I think that knowledge sharing again both ways is really, really important. So it was nice that she, she mentioned that. And hats off to that agency that is being really barren and sharing that knowledge because I think it helps, you know, consolidate that position as the expert. That's why they've come to you. They need that specialism. They can't do that in house. And it's nice just to be able to, to share that and help. And it also provides them with an understanding of your work, why you're doing what you're doing.

Brittany Jarman [00:11:03]: It helps both ways.

Emma Derbyshire [00:11:05]: It does. You know, on the occasion where a campaign perhaps doesn't perform as well as you think it might and of course that happens to everybody in our space. You know, not everything works as well as you'd hope it would. At least they have an understanding as to why you've tried it, you know, and the data and their thinking behind why you've actually executed it in that particular way. So I think it's a really great thing to do.

Brittany Jarman [00:11:27]: Yeah, really, it benefits everybody.

Emma Derbyshire [00:11:29]: It does benefit everybody.

Brittany Jarman [00:11:30]: So the last topic that I think was particularly interesting was when it comes to choosing an agency and how they go about it.

Emma Derbyshire [00:11:39]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:11:39]: And I think all of the brands on the panel agreed that word of mouth was kind of the strongest. If. If they've been had a recommendation from somebody else that's maybe in a similar industry to them. Oh, we worked with these guys. It worked really well instantly. They're kind of just like, yeah, I. Yeah, I want to work with them.

Emma Derbyshire [00:11:56]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:11:57]: So I found that really interesting because, I mean, we obviously do as an agency a variety of different ways that we try and generate kind of new, get new clients, but I think even we've seen when we've had a client recommended to us, the difference that it makes in that relationship straight away.

Emma Derbyshire [00:12:14]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:12:15]: Is massive. So. Yeah. What was your thoughts on that? I found it really interesting.

Emma Derbyshire [00:12:20]: I think it's just the trust piece, isn't it? And that word actually was bundled around quite a lot. Yeah, it was, it is. It's like if I think I answered a question on it actually from the audience and we were talking about it and I said, you know, if you need a new makeup product, you'd ask your friend, like, what mascara are you using or where it's nice to go to eat. We're going on a date night this weekend. And it's like no different to that. And I think it's. There was no bigger compliment as an agency than someone referring you for work. It puts a certain kind of pressure on to perform more so than, I suppose, normal anyway, because, you know, you don't want to such a compliment to be referred and you don't want to let anybody down. But it really does help. And I think something else that was spoken a lot about was vibes, which really made me laugh. But it's true, you know, building that rapport and working with people that you, that you like. You know, you can appreciate that if you've been working in house for a long time and you are quite protective of your brand and rightly so, you need to be working with people that, yes, you can trust. So word of mouth recommendation is great, but also how do you feel when you're in the room? Yeah, you know, how does. How's it interaction? What's the banter like? You know, it is really important. Do you like that person? Because then if you do, that's going to make you want to communicate with them, want to collaborate with them, want to see them do well. Yeah. And you know, as a result, you doing well. So I think vibes is really important.

Brittany Jarman [00:13:39]: And we like to be seen as an extension of the team for that.

Emma Derbyshire [00:13:42]: Right.

Brittany Jarman [00:13:42]: We don't want to be Seen as. Oh, they're the agency. They sit.

Emma Derbyshire [00:13:46]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:13:46]: That particular area. They're only needed for X, Y, Z. We want to be an extension of the team and just being involved in that kind of wider conversation with the company sometimes just really helps us think. Oh, actually that can help with what we're doing. And they probably wouldn't have even thought, but if you've got a really good relationship with them, you've got really good rapport, your conversations just go off in different directions and you end up uncovering things that you probably wouldn't have done and then you really feel like you're part of that. You're part of an extension of that team.

Emma Derbyshire [00:14:14]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:14:15]: So that helps with that. Okay, so I think that's enough about the panel. But there was lots there. It was very, very insightful and it's always good to hear it from both sides.

Emma Derbyshire [00:14:25]: It's very interesting to hear because it.

Brittany Jarman [00:14:26]: Is such a big topic that people talk about.

Emma Derbyshire [00:14:30]: Now you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story or maybe just some straightforward technical to amp up your performance. Now that's where Ecom now comes in. A partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your e commerce categories to refining your product descriptions. Now, whether you're just starting out or have been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order one off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround. Simply choose what you need.

Brittany Jarman [00:15:10]: The next kind of section that we'd like to talk about is the different ways that people work with agencies, especially E Com brands. So. And just unpack what each of those look like when a brand may potentially need to use certain options when it's best for them. So the different options are freelancers.

Emma Derbyshire [00:15:33]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:15:34]: Full in house team.

Emma Derbyshire [00:15:36]: Yeah. So no one else contributing? No. Yeah, yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:15:40]: And then that hybrid model where you kind of, you've got people in house and you've got an agency doing maybe a couple of different bits here and there. Yeah, yeah. So let's start with freelancers. Okay. When does a brand necessarily need a freelancer? I guess.

Emma Derbyshire [00:15:56]: Yeah. So I think freelancers are really great for smaller projects, short term projects. Yeah. Really kind of tunnel visioned on a certain specific goal. I think they can also do tend to be cheaper in price. I think there's potentially a certain transition where perhaps a brand needs some external help. Perhaps can't Afford an agency fee, even a small agency fee, but want to dabble in handing over the reins a little bit to a specialist somewhere. Yeah, I think it can be a really good like transition for that as well. I would say.

Brittany Jarman [00:16:36]: Yeah, it's a good, it's a good method to kind of bridge a gap.

Emma Derbyshire [00:16:40]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:16:40]: Where a brand maybe knows. Yes, we do need to engage with a third party here. Like don't have that expertise in house yet. We're not quite ready to maybe even kind of sign up for that longer term relationship.

Emma Derbyshire [00:16:52]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:16:53]: You do have to have with agencies. It's not a lot of agencies won't have you kind of just jump in and out. Yes, it's a long term relationship.

Emma Derbyshire [00:17:01]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:17:01]: May not be ready for that. Maybe you, you know, you need to explore a certain channel but you're not actually sure if it is going to work for you yet or not. And you don't have that expertise yourself. You could work with a freelancer on a short term basis. Really? See. Oh actually yes, this works for us. And then you know that you've got something good there.

Emma Derbyshire [00:17:19]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:17:20]: Then commit to an agency. So it's a good, it's a good way to bridge a gap. Yeah, there's definitely a place for them.

Emma Derbyshire [00:17:26]: Yeah, for sure.

Brittany Jarman [00:17:27]: Which yeah, I think they are good places to start because we have these conversations all the time where people, they're not sure whether to kind of work with us, they're not sure whether to go with an agency, they're not sure whether to hire in house and all three of those options have a place. Yeah. Whether it's right for where they are in that journey. So yeah, I think I agree that's definitely where freelancers sit. So in house, full in house teams. What's your thoughts on that? Where and when should a brand just have in house and not engage with any kind of freelancers or agencies?

Emma Derbyshire [00:17:59]: Yeah, I think when an E Com brand is starting an essential part of that team, whether that be the founder who's wearing all of the hats or if they are starting to recruit their first couple of employees. Is that generalist marketer think or E commerce specialist? Either. Or somebody that can dabble and has a top line knowledge of most platforms, most verticals that can kind of do that initial testing. Are our audience here, how are they reacting here? How are we converting here to like suss it all out? I think at that point you don't really know enough about your E Comm store or your E Comm brand or your audience to be able to Invest in any kind of specialism and it would be a little bit like the blind leading the blind, instructing an agency or a freelancer. At that point, when you don't actually know yourself what's going to work for your brand, you're discovering who that brand is, who your audience are. So I say that's a, you know, a real kind of opportunity for in house teams to solely run and I guess at the complete opposite side of the scale, some like huge multinational, like billion pounds companies. If they can afford to hire those experts but in every single vertical. Yeah, then I suppose why not? But that is quite. That is the complete opposite end of that scale. I think, you know, we often have conversations with brands that perhaps sit in the middle and they're unsure whether to go agency or they say, you know, we might hire internally but what they want that internal hire to do is be experts in every single marketplace, in every single vertical and that person just doesn't exist. It's too much, you know, for a salary of, I don't know, say 50k a year.

Brittany Jarman [00:19:46]: You know that an expert in multiple things.

Emma Derbyshire [00:19:48]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:19:50]: Experts are usually just experts in one. They have to be tunnel vision.

Emma Derbyshire [00:19:54]: You have to specialize somehow. Yeah. So I think, you know, it's unfair almost of brands to expect to hire a marketing manager that then is an expert and can specialize in every single area. So unless you have the budget in house to be able to recruit for a specialist in meta, a specialist in Google Ads, a specialist in SEO, a specialist in content, in video and UX in design, unless you have got all of the money available for those salaries and even if you do, is that the most efficient use of that, that budget as well?

Brittany Jarman [00:20:24]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:20:25]: So perhaps sometimes once you've scaled to a certain point, but there's a huge area in the middle between those two extremes where I don't personally believe that in house full in house team is productive for growth.

Brittany Jarman [00:20:37]: No, no, no, it's not that. It's not got that growth mindset. No. You could keep it all in house if you are in that kind of middle phase, but you're probably going to stay where you are.

Emma Derbyshire [00:20:46]: Yeah. Same themed, same size business. Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:20:49]: You're going to stay the same size which if that's your goal, if that's what you want to do, that's fine.

Emma Derbyshire [00:20:53]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:20:54]: Because you've got mindset and you've got really big ambitious targets.

Emma Derbyshire [00:20:58]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:20:58]: You're probably not going to get there without. If you haven't got that expert in house. No, you're not going to get there without them.

Emma Derbyshire [00:21:04]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:21:05]: Which obviously that's the advantage of an agency is that there are experts in each of those niches. Yeah, for sure. And you've got them at your beck and call. At your beck and call. So it can be. When you are in that middle area, like you say, it's actually more cost efficient to go with that third party rather than hire like 10 experts.

Emma Derbyshire [00:21:27]: Yeah, I would argue that, sure.

Brittany Jarman [00:21:29]: Okay. The next is the hybrid model which is probably the majority of brands that we speak to are in that middle ground where the hybrid model is probably the most realistic option for them. Yeah. So it's where they've got a team in house, maybe say five different generalist marketers and then they've got some agencies or maybe just one agency that's kind of like full service, doing ppc, SEO and email or they've got a few different agencies doing a few different things. Yeah, I'd say that's the most common kind of setup that we see with our clients. But yeah, what do you, what's kind of the, the journey that those guys are on? Where's that best placed?

Emma Derbyshire [00:22:19]: I think, yeah, it is in that middle, that middle stage. It's where perhaps they, they do have that really ambitious. They're at the start of perhaps a really ambitious growth trajectory that they want to be on and it's where they can, they can very clearly direct or see where the opportunity is so they can identify the need that they have. That is we need to be using our ad spend budget more efficiently and reduce wastage but they can acknowledge that internally their poor marketing manager doesn't have the expertise or the time or the resource, the mental capacity to be able to do it. That is the time then to go for agency. Yeah. I also think whilst agencies, of course most agencies do offer multiple solutions and whilst most agencies will be happy to work with any client on just one solution which then naturally, as that relationship develops, typically then ends up being pretty much full service with their other services too. I do think that that kind of multiple service holistic approach is the best way forward when working with an agency. I think if there's an agency that umbrellas certain services, you know, we specialize in E commerce growth so we have four key areas, four key solutions that complement each other beautifully and ultimately drive for clients using our E commerce growth engine. I think that is where the real magic can happen. Yes, you have to have really good communication with the client but they've identified the need, you can provide the solution and Then you work collaboratively together to achieve that. In my mind that is where the hybrid approach sits perfectly. Everybody has to be up for it. You have to have a marketing manager or a digital director or an E commerce director who wants that, who can see the value in that, that wants to contrib future the success of that relationship and can acknowledge, hey, we can't do everything. And I think it's same with agency. You know how, how often do we get prospects chatting to us and they're like a perfect fit but they want a service that we just don't offer.

Brittany Jarman [00:24:25]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:24:25]: We would never be like, yeah, we'll give that a go because we stay in our lane, we know what we're good at. And I think when an agency can stay in their lane and the in house team can stay in their lane and they know what they need and the agency knows what they can deliver and those two match up, that is the perfect opportunity for that hybrid model to work really well.

Brittany Jarman [00:24:41]: Yeah. And it's the perfect opportunity for growth really. Because if you've got anybody that's kind of on that in house team who's not quite aligned with the agency, it happens, I think sometimes they maybe see that we're maybe a bit of a threat. They seems worried that we're going to come and take their jobs, which is absolutely not what we're here to do at all.

Emma Derbyshire [00:25:01]: No.

Brittany Jarman [00:25:03]: If you've got everybody on the same page, they really see the benefit of the agency and why they're there. That is when you really start to see the growth. Because we need to cut the, the, the in house team to collaborate with us as much as they need us to collaborate with them. If you've got, you know, kind of work strategies in place and we need to kind of make sure that it's all aligned with everything that they've got going on in house and we don't want to have any blockers getting in the way of that because ultimately the more blockers the more it kind of hinders performance and, and then growth just doesn't happen as quickly. So yeah, having everybody on the same page with that hybrid approach is so important.

Emma Derbyshire [00:25:38]: Yeah. And I think if you try to achieve that too early, when you're too small, you get bogged down in fees, how much you're paying. Perhaps it' real stretch budget wise to work with an agency. So it's, there's friction and tension there already and I think if you are then working on that opposite end of the scale where we're talking about Just in house marketers, because they can afford to pay for a specialist in every single platform and every single solution. That is where that kind of reluctance to cooperate with an agency might come in. Well, hang on, I'm an expert in SEO. Why, why have you got this agency in? So I think that's where that real sweet spot for hybrid is where you acknowledge there's a problem or there's a something that needs fixing.

Brittany Jarman [00:26:17]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:26:17]: But you don't have the team to.

Brittany Jarman [00:26:18]: Be able to do it.

Emma Derbyshire [00:26:19]: And that, that's where that hybrid approach is just pure magic. Yeah, it is. So for our final section, I love a bit of this. I feel like I need a bit of a like not ringtone. What's the word? Theme tune.

Brittany Jarman [00:26:31]: Yes.

Emma Derbyshire [00:26:36]: So there's loads of stuff that's been battered out, especially recently, like we said about kind of the agency versus in house. So I'm gonna hit you with some of the myths and I want you to hit back with why they are myths and bust them.

Brittany Jarman [00:26:50]: Okay.

Emma Derbyshire [00:26:51]: So the first one is agencies are far too expensive.

Brittany Jarman [00:26:56]: So I think we have, we have touched on this a little bit. To me there, that kind of piece where you acknowledge that you need experts, but you think, oh, should I get an agency? Should I hire in house? Oh, hiring house will be so much cheaper if I just hire one person for that same cost. I've got them all to myself, I've got them here. I've got control over them. Yeah. When like we acknowledge you, you actually probably need 10 experts and 10 different people to do that to the same level that if you engaged in the agency.

Emma Derbyshire [00:27:28]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:27:29]: That work would happen. So on the, on paper, on surface level, if you do compare agency fees for say four different services to one internal hire.

Emma Derbyshire [00:27:40]: Yes.

Brittany Jarman [00:27:41]: The internal hire does look cheaper, the agency looks more expensive. But the output that you're actually going to get from that is like so far and beyond. So completely different. Yeah. That it's actually cheaper in the long run.

Emma Derbyshire [00:27:56]: So value.

Brittany Jarman [00:27:57]: See. Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:27:58]: So what you're getting for that because.

Brittany Jarman [00:28:00]: Of money that in internal hire, could one get burnt out leave.

Emma Derbyshire [00:28:06]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:28:06]: Then got the cost to rehire them.

Emma Derbyshire [00:28:08]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:28:08]: And it's expensive to hire expensive. So then you could just be in the same pattern of you rehiring. They have to juggle 10 different jobs.

Emma Derbyshire [00:28:16]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:28:16]: Should be 10 different people's workloads. Get burnt out, leave again and you'll be in this constant cycle where if you just engage with the agency to begin with.

Emma Derbyshire [00:28:25]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:28:25]: You would have actually saved money.

Emma Derbyshire [00:28:27]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:28:27]: Long run. So I Think looking at it from that perspective is difficult to get people to think about it like that.

Emma Derbyshire [00:28:35]: Yeah. But also like 8 actually finding the right person. Oh, yeah. I mean, good luck finding somebody who can do all of those things and do it well. But also, what about the cost of like the tools? Yeah, you know, you know, as an agency, you, you know, there are big fees associated with some of the tools that are actually absolutely integral to insight and strategy execution, efficiency and stuff like that. So you would not only have to pay in house for that person or, or that specialist or multiple specialists, but you then also have the subscription fees for all of the tools on top of that. Now, for some brands, that, that absolutely is the way forward. And I'm sure lots of people do that. But it's just that constant agencies are too expensive. Narrative is so blinkered. Yeah. So short sighted. So I think you articulated that really well.

Brittany Jarman [00:29:26]: Thank you. Hit me with the next one.

Emma Derbyshire [00:29:29]: Okay. Myth number two in house means more control.

Brittany Jarman [00:29:36]: Okay, let me think about this. Okay, so I think, yes, there is the perception that you've got them there, they're right in front of you, they're in your office, or they're literally on the end of the phone for you. Which, to be honest, we can be on the end of the phone as well.

Emma Derbyshire [00:29:51]: We are, we are, we are.

Brittany Jarman [00:29:52]: But yeah, you feel like they're much more within your grasp.

Emma Derbyshire [00:29:55]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:29:55]: If they are your employee, they work for you. But it, again, it's that if you're trying to make them be an expert in say ppc, SEO, email, do all of those things, they're then spread so thin across those areas. Then there's also, I mean, it happens if anybody listening has worked in house before, you get pulled from pillar to post, different departments coming up to your day. Oh, can you just quickly film this?

Emma Derbyshire [00:30:23]: Tick tock.

Brittany Jarman [00:30:24]: Oh, can you just quickly send that letter for me? Like the marketing department in house gets asked to do the most random things. Like you'll get somebody saying, oh, can you just. I've had a customer ask for a little personalized note in their parcel. Can you write it for me? Because. Because you work, you've got nice handwriting, like the most random thing. So they'll be pulled, spread really thin doing things like that as well. Yeah. And it gets to a point where you're not actually in that much control of them because they've got that many things on their plate.

Emma Derbyshire [00:30:51]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:30:52]: That they can't even keep up with what they need to do, especially in a way to do it well. Like they probably do keep on top of it. But it's then being done kind of when they get time here and there, not in depth like an agency would.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:06]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:31:08]: So then there's different things that happen in house. Like you might have a project coming up that's a massive focus. So they forget about all those other things and just play yourself.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:15]: Because you want a few weeks.

Brittany Jarman [00:31:16]: Yeah. Whereas with an agency, we only focus on that one thing that you've asked us to work on all 100 of the time. That's what we're looking at.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:25]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:31:25]: We won't get pulled into different meetings about completely different things from other departments within your business. We just focus on that.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:32]: It's looked after. It's.

Brittany Jarman [00:31:33]: It's always looked after. It's always in hand. And like I said, we're always on the end of the phone. We are as an agency very hot on our communications. So we use slack channels and things. So we're literally on the end of a slack message. It's an instant messenger.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:45]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:31:46]: The control piece isn't really that different. We're. We're almost more available than an internal.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:54]: Hire, I think as well.

Brittany Jarman [00:31:55]: Specific area anyway. Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:31:57]: And it's like, do you want control or don't Growth. Yeah. In my mind you have to let go sometimes. And the amount of times that we have meetings with clients and they're like, oh, it's so great to see a fresh perspective. So I think sometimes when you work in house, speaking from experience, you are so focused on the brand.

Brittany Jarman [00:32:14]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:32:15]: That you lose all sight of any other opportunity. The blinkers are on. Despite the fact that you're being pulled from pillar to post. And sometimes sitting in a room with an agency or freelancers, to be fair, somebody third party to your business, adding a fresh perspective just unravels a whole new world of opportunity that because you're bogged down in day to day, even you can't see you've not witnessed. So again, you know, in house marketing managers, you're amazing. And E commerce managers and stuff. Literally the amount of work you have to do.

Brittany Jarman [00:32:46]: Hats off.

Emma Derbyshire [00:32:46]: Yeah. Soft. You are absolutely amazing. But if a brand is making the decision over in house or agency because they want that control, I wouldn't say that's the right decision making factor to use. And the control can often stint that growth potential. I would say.

Brittany Jarman [00:33:04]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:33:04]: Final point for our myth busting, and it's one that I kind of touched on a LinkedIn post today actually was the verses that is put in that in house versus agency because I think the way that phrase is put makes it. You literally envision, like a boxing ring and you have in house on one side and agency on the other. I mean, it's a real bugbear of mine, but it's for you to myth burst, do it.

Brittany Jarman [00:33:31]: So, yeah, I'm with you. It's always a kind of us and them type thing.

Emma Derbyshire [00:33:35]: Why.

Brittany Jarman [00:33:36]: And I don't know why or where it came from, but it doesn't benefit anybody by thinking in that way other than them. It just doesn't. Again, it's not that growth mindset.

Emma Derbyshire [00:33:48]: No.

Brittany Jarman [00:33:49]: We are there to be an extension of the team. Just think of us as the. If you work with us on SEO, we're just the SEO department. They're based in a different office in a different building.

Emma Derbyshire [00:33:58]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:33:58]: That's all it is. Think of us as we are part of your team. Yeah, That's. We're all on the same team. At the end of the day, we all have the same goal. We want your business to grow. Yeah. That's everybody's main goal. So it's. It is crazy that two people with the same goal for the same business are put in two different baskets almost. So.

Emma Derbyshire [00:34:21]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:34:22]: I mean, it's as simple as that.

Emma Derbyshire [00:34:23]: It is.

Brittany Jarman [00:34:23]: It's a hard myth to bust, to be honest, because it's so ingrained.

Emma Derbyshire [00:34:27]: I think it's a mindset and like a reputation thing. When we went on the panel and I knew that I was, again, I was about to say up against every three E Comm stores, but I was speaking with three different kind of marketing or eco managers from. From the retailers. I was thinking, wow, like, I'm gonna get tricky. And all of them are like, we love working with our agency.

Brittany Jarman [00:34:48]: And I was like, yeah, yeah, they were brilliant.

Emma Derbyshire [00:34:50]: Like, what a positive, positive message to set across when we are constantly pitted against each other.

Brittany Jarman [00:34:56]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:34:56]: It's just ludicrous. And I think maybe it is just the way that it's pitted together. I'm sure when that phrase was first introduced, it was more around a specific decision. Should I, as a director, sector hire in house or use an agency? But because that versus phrase has come into the middle of that, that whole thing, it just makes it seem as versus them. And that no agency or freelancer or econ brand will ever benefit from that being the reality of a partnership.

Brittany Jarman [00:35:23]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:35:24]: And it's not a partnership, is it?

Brittany Jarman [00:35:25]: Ultimately, I think one thing as well. We all need each other because there's all the different kind of ways of working. So we looked at freelancers. Full in house hybrid and why you should do them. But I think one thing we didn't touch on is when you work with an agency, it's so important to have that in house team as well. If you just worked with a company where they had no internal marketing, it would be quite tricky for us as an agency. To be fair. We need those guys as much as they need us because we need them to sign things off. We need to make sure that the strategy we've put together is really aligned with kind of what. What they were planning on doing internally. And we need those guys on that side to be on our side too. And we want to be on their side. So we all equally need each other. Yes. We need to stick together.

Emma Derbyshire [00:36:11]: No boxing gloves. Quiet. Yes.

Brittany Jarman [00:36:14]: I think hopefully the narrative will change.

Emma Derbyshire [00:36:17]: I think it helps to speak about it. Yeah. And it is being spoken about loads. There are varying different degrees of people that perhaps might agree with the conversation, the tone of the conversation that we've had today and some that don't, some that have had horror stories from agencies. But not all clients are rosy to work with either. And I think it's important just to acknowledge that. That it's all. It's all relative.

Brittany Jarman [00:36:40]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:36:40]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:36:40]: I've really enjoyed this chat.

Emma Derbyshire [00:36:42]: Me too.

Brittany Jarman [00:36:43]: It's like you say, been a huge topic at the minute, but I think just to summarize everything we've been through in this episode is. I think the main. One of the main takeaways is just think bigger as a brand. Think bigger. If you stick with what you're doing at the minute, then you're probably gonna stay where you are, which is fine if that's what your goal is. Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:37:04]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:37:04]: If you've got really ambitious growth plans, maybe have a think about some of the different options that we talked about. Yeah. And the different ways of working with or without agencies. It entirely depends on your goal, I guess, doesn't it? And what. What your growth trajectory looks like for the next three years. What option is best to get you there. All of them have a place. All of those different models have a place. I think the only one, when we. We had a little chat before what we were going to talk about and one thing that we didn't really know if it had a place is just working with agencies and not having anybody in house. Yeah. Which I think I did touch on that. We need those in house guys as much as they need us.

Emma Derbyshire [00:37:44]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:37:44]: Just to make sure that we're on the right path along the lines.

Emma Derbyshire [00:37:48]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:37:48]: Just someone to represent the brand from a marketing perspective. But all the other ways to work that we chatted on, they all have their place.

Emma Derbyshire [00:37:57]: They do.

Brittany Jarman [00:37:58]: And yeah, I think communication and collaboration are probably the two main important factors when working with an agency. Aside from results. Obviously you need results.

Emma Derbyshire [00:38:08]: I think that disgrace.

Brittany Jarman [00:38:09]: But that's a given. That's the whole reason that we do what we do.

Emma Derbyshire [00:38:12]: Yeah.

Brittany Jarman [00:38:13]: So that's almost like a non negotiable. We're not even going to twist them that because that's, that's why we're here. That's what we need to do. So yeah, I think collaboration and communication are kind of those key areas that make an agency and in house relationship successful.

Emma Derbyshire [00:38:27]: Yeah. Ultimately you can make any of those different models work. Yeah. As long as you're making your decisions for the right reasons. And then if you are going to use a third party that the communication, the collaboration, the vibes. Yeah. Everything that we discussed are right.

Brittany Jarman [00:38:44]: Yeah.

Emma Derbyshire [00:38:44]: Might not always get it right first time, but being honest, accountable for that and then sussing it out as you go along the way forward.

Brittany Jarman [00:38:52]: Emma?

Emma Derbyshire [00:38:53]: Yes.

Brittany Jarman [00:38:53]: One final question for this episode. If say someone is listening right now, they're got huge growth plans, they, they want to double their revenue in the next say two to five years and they're on the cusp of reaching out to agencies, maybe us, what would you say to them?

Emma Derbyshire [00:39:13]: I'd say advice. How exciting. I would say chat to your network who's done what for who, that you know, who's got a good reputation. What exactly is it that you need to have a real clear idea of what it is you need, where you're at, where you want to be, what the problem is in between. And then trying to match a third party supplier, whether that is an agency or a freelancer to that. And then if you're a little bit further along in the process, you know, look for that communication standard. How are they dealing with you during the, the conversations that you're having? Are they going for the hard sell or are they trying to understand your brand? You know, how much do they like to collaborate? How transparent and honest are they with, with what they're telling you and the way they like to work? I think that's it really. Just have that real clear, you know, perception in your mind of this is what I need this agency to do. And if it was Econ 1 they wanted to reach out to, we'd love to have a chat. I think we are in such an exciting time as an agency where we're really looking to scale too, so we're really keen to work with brands that can match us with their kind of energy and the ambition behind their growth plans as well. No pitches. We just like to have conversations to get to know these brands and ultimately understand how we can best help. So if that sounds like something you might be interested in, then Emma and Brit, you know where we are.

Brittany Jarman [00:40:39]: You know where we are. Well, thank you Emma for this chat. I've loved it.

Emma Derbyshire [00:40:43]: It was nice to chat. Don't copy my outfit next time.

Brittany Jarman [00:40:47]: Get your own wardrobe.

Emma Derbyshire [00:40:49]: I don't know literally who wore it best in the comments. Guys, what we're gonna wear tomorrow.

Brittany Jarman [00:40:53]: I know. Probably exactly the same thing as each.

Emma Derbyshire [00:40:56]: Of it, but yeah, thanks for chat. It was. It was really fun.

Richard Hill [00:41:04]: If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or Follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast. You'Re always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next one.