E216: Theo Roberts

Richard Hill [00:00:04]: Welcome back to the Ecom at One podcast. I'm Richard Hill and today we've got Theo Roberts with us now. Theo is the head of SEO at Ecom1 and this is his third time on the pod and it is perfect timing. Theo and the team and myself have just been speaking about AI and search at many, many industry events across the UK and further afield. And everyone keeps asking the same thing. What's real, what's hype? And what should E commerce brands actually be doing right now? In this episode, Theo cuts through the noise on AI, LLMs and AI, overviews overlays and explains how traditional SEO, social discovery and brand signals all plug together in this new world. He also shares practical tactical moves you can take today to improve discoverability. And yes, will point you to a tool we built ourselves to assess your AI visibility.

Richard Hill [00:00:56]: If you want a clear, actionable take on where search is heading and how.

Richard Hill [00:01:03]: Now do me a favor, hit the subscriber follow button wherever you're listening, so you're always the first to know when a new episode drops. Right, let's head straight into this fantastic episode with Theo Roberts. Here we are back in the studio. Take three. Third time, Third time that Theo's been on the pod and here at Ecom1HQ. And I thought it was very, very timely. We both just come out of two presentations regarding AI and SEO industry events around the UK at the E Commerce Expo and the Sales Fire Summit. And we're getting a lot of questions around AI and SEO and what's, what's happening and what it means and, you know, and for us, it's just our day job.

Richard Hill [00:01:47]: Very much your. Your day job. So I thought, let's get you on. Let's put a few things straight with what we're seeing in the agency, what we're seeing and what you're seeing with your team. Yeah. So excited for this one.

Theo Roberts [00:02:00]: Thank you for having me back. Yeah, it's been third podcast in. I've been here for three years at Ecom1 now, so yeah, it's nice time.

Richard Hill [00:02:08]: Yeah. So for those that maybe have been living under a rock, have not met you before on the podcast. Maybe just introduce yourself to the listeners.

Theo Roberts [00:02:16]: Yeah, I'm Theo Roberts. I am head of SEO here at Ecom1. Yeah, I've worked here for three years now. Time has definitely flown by and in this three year space, there's been people like it. Well, some people would think there's been a lot of change during this time and there has Been, there's a lot out there now in this AI world we live in and there are certain things that we have definitely been, we've been doing as an agency to definitely embrace it. But there's a lot of, I guess, fake news. That's a nice buzzword. Yeah, fake news out there in the world about SEO.

Theo Roberts [00:02:51]: So it's definitely time to set the record straight. Let's do this.

Richard Hill [00:02:55]: So where to go? And I think, you know, more and more people are using these things, you know, obviously, you know, but in terms of search and in terms of searching on Google, Bing, et cetera, et cetera, and finding, you know, our clients products. But in terms of using the other, the LLMs, you know, and I know, I have to admit, even yesterday I spent probably an hour and a half on chat GPT looking at particular types of products for clients and for me and looking at the way that LLMs are delivering a different type of search experience and trying to understand even more and more and more in more detail of what they are delivering for Ecom stores. So, you know, from, from Ecom brands perspective, you know, should brands be optimizing for customers or should they be optimizing for the algorithm, the different algorithms that are now sort of more and more at play?

Theo Roberts [00:03:51]: That's an interesting question. I find it interesting because I feel, especially when you're on LinkedIn and you're seeing what other people in SEO are saying about AI and LLMs, there's a clear split and divide. It's either or. And I think, honestly and truly, I think why not both? That's just a phrase that is really true to me in the kind of, in this world of AI and SEO now, why not both and not just AI? I think a lot of debate when it comes to SEO, that is the answer, why not both? I think there's a lot you can't, you should definitely be optimizing for the human, for the users. They have queries, they have questions, they need solutions. So creating content that answers those queries is so important. But again, there's a way to do it that can definitely capture those LLMs and their attention and have you featuring in them and as well as the AI views.

Richard Hill [00:04:48]: So it's not one or the other, obviously, I think is the, you know, is the reality. You know, you see these very bold statements on LinkedIn. Oh, this is dead again because of this. Oh, here we go. Here's the nonsense again. Here's the, you know, but the reality is, yeah, there's been some shifts for sure. You know, some shifts but you know, is Google still the king then? Is that, are we still saying Google is the king? But be mindful of some of these other up and comers.

Theo Roberts [00:05:14]: I think Google now has, well, I know Google has 89% of the online share that has gone under 90% for the first time in a long while. However, it is still obviously a dominant, the dominant force. It is, yeah. But again it's, you definitely have to pay attention to why that's happened. It's happened because of the rise of these LLMs. People are searching in new ways especially and people of all generations. So again I think it's so right that you as a e commerce store, you as a retailer that you definitely embrace this change. Let your seeing how you can connect to your users and again your feedback featuring in those LLMs, there's different and if you have great content on your website, there's just little things you can do to make sure that you become discoverable.

Theo Roberts [00:06:03]: And that's another word that my teasing.

Richard Hill [00:06:04]: And you're teasing the guys now, aren't you with a few little bits. Okay, we'll get those.

Theo Roberts [00:06:08]: Yeah, I do like to tease definitely. But there are definitely things you can do. And I think word that I like to use is discover. And that's something I think when we think of SEO it's about a again acquiring people, searching for your products for questions relating to the products and the services that you offer. Yeah, obviously that's what we do. We're making sure that we're creating content that definitely captures those users. But when you think of search from another perspective, you might want to think of it think about social media. People discover things on social media every single minute of the day.

Theo Roberts [00:06:49]: So it's a chance for them. They may not be searching for what you're looking for, but there's still a chance and opportunity for them to discover you. Yeah, and think of that as that first kind of hook. Yeah, you never know when they're actually going to then need your products or services and then the kind of more traditional organic search of them going to potentially a search engine or then asking, using their Voice now asking ChatGPT a question, asking. And then you need to obviously as a store make sure that you have that content that answers that question. So yeah, there is a lot of change. But just think of SEO as a way to definitely acquire. But also think of it from that discovery perspective.

Theo Roberts [00:07:26]: Make sure that you're capturing people who are unintentionally searching.

Richard Hill [00:07:33]: So Google's still the king he's had a, had a little slip. He, she's had a little slip. But the reality is, you know when you think about our own searches, you know our list of searches and our, our client searches as an E comm stor who are best searching on different social media platforms as you, you're alluding to there, you know the, the Instagram tick tock, you know and maybe other forums and places like Reddit which we'll come to. So obviously they've had a bit of a, you know a rise in terms of what people are using them for to find products and get product ideas or to be shown products but ultimately Google's still got that volume but it's reduced a little BIT and the LLMs are taking information from all of these places, different levels of intent and different levels of priority. You know I think you know we could, we could record this three months from now and you know our probably opinion on where it's Getting its, where LLMs ChatGPT for example is getting its information from me you know we might slightly. Oh it's just getting it more from there now and you know there's been a lot more chatter around Bing more recently know and having Bing webmaster tools set up and ensuring that's that's in flow and but still we've got this array of places that people are searching. So that's you know that's been changing for quite a few years hasn't it where more and more people are, you know, four, five, six, seven, eight searches on all five or six different platforms. So making sure we've potentially got, we've got a presence in those platforms and then LLMs are then using these different places to preference.

Richard Hill [00:09:10]: So I think it's becoming a bit of a jungle I think you know is the reality We've got, you know we've got videos, we've got carousels, we've got local, you know with E Comm stores, you know different search types of searches will show more video pull different things from different social media platforms. You know is ranking number one still the, the aim of the game for.

Theo Roberts [00:09:34]: Sure and 100% I think when we look at the SERP there's so many more features now let's forget about the AI overview for a second. Yeah that aside there are still so many different new features on that page. There's the now the enhanced organic products. You now see the, I think a month ago actually two months ago almost Instagram posts are now feeding into the SERP as well. So Google is always Evolving and again there's AI mode as a different whole different tab within Google. So, so there's so much real estate on that search engine results page that you need to be capturing. So of course you want to be number one. Of course you want to be featuring in those sponsored ads, of course you want to be featured in the people also ask, you want to also be featured in the AI overview and those videos because again you don't know which piece of which feature users are going to interact with on that page.

Theo Roberts [00:10:29]: So having that real estate and being in that various locations on that page y is paramount.

Richard Hill [00:10:34]: So E commerce specifically and AI overviews. AI I like to go, yeah, AI.

Theo Roberts [00:10:38]: Overviews, AI overlays, you know, I'll get.

Richard Hill [00:10:41]: Told off for that. But AI overviews obviously quite, quite to do a few months ago when that launched or quite several fair while ago now, probably 12 months ago now obviously they, they appeared and a lot of sites saw a reduction in click through. But I think the upside was, you know, the click people that did then go to the site were informed and the purchases were a lot higher. So it, it worked out in the end sort of thing is the general consensus. But for the people that are listening now and they're thinking, yeah, they're flipping AI overviews, you know, and obviously we have a certain ways and means of getting in the overviews as a company, as a team for our clients, you know, what advice would you give to clients that are maybe they're doing really good with content, you know, and they're ranking pretty well, but they're maybe not getting in the AI overviews, AI overlays with their content. What some things that our listeners can do to just maybe really improve the content that they're doing and what sort of things are maybe ranking really well in the AI overviews.

Theo Roberts [00:11:42]: I, I want to first answer this question by saying to E commerce owners, retailers think of again, SEO has always been about keywords traditionally. So when you think of those keywords that bring that major acquisition to your site, to those category pages that drive that revenue. So if I'm selling outdoor gear and I'm searching, let's say LED flashlights, I'm really not likely to see an AI overview on that page.

Richard Hill [00:12:12]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:12:13]: However, if I, if I'm a user at the top of the funnel and I'm searching, where can I find the best LED flashlight? Yeah. And they don't know the store to go to. Yeah. So it's more general about the earlier stage of that journey that content like you create to acquire that user is going to be so important.

Richard Hill [00:12:33]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:12:34]: So again, you need to approach it from that perspective. You're at this point, at this stage, the keyword to your more traditional category pages. Yes. Ensuring that those are optimized as well as they're possible and as best as possible. That's what we do and that's how we get those top results organically. But then it's all about that supporting content. So if you had a supporting piece of content for that category page, such as best LED flashlights, again, what is the title? How can you adapt that to make sure that you're going to acquire those people searching that question. Well, it's about the title, it's about how you structure the content within that piece.

Theo Roberts [00:13:17]: So again, traditionally you might create a piece of content that's aimed at answering user queries and you might write paragraphs. Great. It could have been, it could definitely could have ranked really high. But if you definitely want to, well, you definitely do want to acquire that feature within the LLM. Then again, it's about well structured. So that's from bullet points, that's two tables. If you're again doing primary research as a business and you definitely want to be that thought leader in your market, then if you're doing that primary research and then you're displaying that research and data in tables, the LLMs are going to look that.

Richard Hill [00:13:57]: It's so true. It's so true. I spent, I mentioned at the beginning, but I probably spent about two hours at the week or yesterday trying to understand about something to do with a tv, funnily enough, and how high to mount it on the wall. So now if I was to go into Google and just type in LG G5 and size, you know, I'm not going to see, I don't believe an AI overview and AI overlay AI overview because, you know, it's not really a top of the funnel. It's very specific and that's pretty much what you've said there that, you know, most queries for a product are going to go, are going to show product and very, very closely related product information. Whereas if it's a bit of, a little bit more of a longer query, that's where. How, what, how do I, you know, going back to your torch example, you know, if you're looking for an LED tour, you just typed in LED torch, you're going to see a lot of torches, aren't you?

Theo Roberts [00:14:49]: Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:14:50]: But if you said, you know what five things I should really take with me on a Hike this weekend and it's very dark. It's going to come up with, obviously, very lightly, an AI overview and a overlay. So you need to be optimizing for both, don't you? In reality, there's a whole, you know, we could do a whole episode on sort of topical authority and covering that. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:15:10]: And then again, you spoke about social media. Again, great way to acquire Reddit in particular users. There's such specific subreddit communities out there. We have clients who sell baby swimwear and there's a whole community about baby and child swimming.

Richard Hill [00:15:29]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:15:29]: That the users of that community are always asking questions. So there's two things you can do there. One, again, making your presence on that platform felt. And this isn't bombarding them with post directing them back to your site. It's about just, again, being doing the right thing and making sure that you're sharing your expertise and knowledge with those users.

Richard Hill [00:15:51]: See, I would argue, and I think a lot of this is listeners that are probably experienced. You know, that's traditional SEO. That's good SEO. It's what we've been harping on about for. For how. For the three years you've been here, at least. So, you know, what's the. I think brands are still getting it wrong.

Richard Hill [00:16:06]: Aren't they though? They're still not. Still not creating. And it is costing them, isn't it?

Theo Roberts [00:16:10]: Yeah, definitely. I'll give you an example of something we did. So In December of 2024, I had the idea of what if we basically looked at all the questions in the subreddit and then take those questions and create content all around those questions.

Richard Hill [00:16:28]: So these are questions that are getting asked to do with the. What sort of products were they selling?

Theo Roberts [00:16:33]: So this was one of my clients in the outdoor space. So they sell from tents, they sell backpacks, they sell all EDC gear, they sell knives and tools, etc. So we went into those, the Bushcraft community, the survival community, the EDC subreddit as well. We acquired around 50 questions that were being asked in those free subreddits. We answered those questions and then it was very interesting because what we did.

Richard Hill [00:17:05]: On the client site, as opposed to the. In the subreddits.

Theo Roberts [00:17:08]: Yeah. So we, at this stage, this is the other side of it, we answered those questions on the client's site as content pieces. We made sure that all the subheadings, the H2s within that content was all obviously optimized. Right. But again, answering of those specific questions. So then when we search for those questions, in the AI overview, our client was at the top. Yeah, I love it.

Richard Hill [00:17:35]: I love it because again, it's like I think if you were to go to a, you know, keyword tool, pick your, pick your weapon sort of thing, you know, we're not here to promote all the keyword tools, but you know, there's obviously various tools that the industry uses. The reality is none of those queries would have been any, any of those tools because they're literally what people are asking and well, most of them wouldn't have been there. Things that people are asking right now and the tools are typically a little bit out of date. So what you're getting there is absolutely fresh angles and fresh questions and fresh opinion on a topic that most tools will not have that depth of knowledge yet. So when Google's then got to decide, right, who's the expert? Well, these guys have got a whole, you know, this whole raft of unique, very, very unique content that's not in all the other tool sets.

Theo Roberts [00:18:24]: Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because, yeah, as you said, those questions weren't in the tool sets, but again they were just very on brand and I'm assuming very in the questions. And the answers were interested. The content we were able to create, the users of the engagement rates on those pieces were extremely high in the six foot period post launch. Those five, we did a five part series and those five content pieces on the site made up 11% of the content acquisition and the revenue from those pages increase 124%. So that's the power of really ensuring that you're, you're the solution to those queries.

Richard Hill [00:19:06]: So optimizing for questions, conversation, intent, what people are actually talking about now is.

Theo Roberts [00:19:12]: Sort of the key.

Richard Hill [00:19:13]: Less those 1, 2, 3 keywords, it's more those conversational pieces.

Theo Roberts [00:19:17]: Yep. But again, if you can layer in that keyword research into these content pieces. Yeah, it's both. You're again acquiring users that are searching keywords and then embedding them into the queries that users are searching for.

Richard Hill [00:19:34]: I'm sold.

Theo Roberts [00:19:37]: But I'm guessing there's a few people.

Richard Hill [00:19:38]: With us listening in that are still maybe doing things maybe in a, you know, content, content, heard it all before sort of thing. But what would you say is one very specific mistake that you see a lot of e commerce businesses still making with their SEO strategy and how they can sort of flip that and turn that into a positive.

Theo Roberts [00:19:58]: Again, it's intent. There are more commercial intent keywords then there's the more informational intent keywords so again, that's the basic SEO. But then on top of that, the mistake they're making, I'll be honest, there's two, there's actually there's two kind of be cheeky and have to. So one mistake is when working with new clients in particular, they maybe have invested in SEO for a long while and they're really impressed because they're number one for a branded keyword. So users who are searching for them, they're really happy with that. And again, you want to, if your brand is being searched, you want to be number one. But those users are looking for you already. They already know you, you want to be acquiring the users who again don't know which brand they want to choose to purchase their product.

Theo Roberts [00:20:51]: So that's one thing. The other, it's just how important. Again, there's, I always say there's three disciplines of traditional SEO. There's the technical SEO. Yeah. There's the content and then there's the digital PR link building piece.

Richard Hill [00:21:06]: I think without salient building on a, on one of our podcasts.

Theo Roberts [00:21:09]: Is it, is it a dirty word or is it. No, because I think when I'm fine.

Richard Hill [00:21:13]: I, I always joke because link building has got quite a, you know, negative connotation but obviously done in the right way.

Theo Roberts [00:21:24]: Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:25]: You know, I think what we're alluding to is, you know, link's digital PR is more important than ever.

Theo Roberts [00:21:30]: Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:31]: You know, when, when these LLMs are looking to source information, that is the sort of authority on that particular topic. Query question, you know, it's pulling from different places and again we will, I'm sure you're going to allude to it that link building has been, you know, almost been a had. It's a resurgence of digital PR and link building this last sort of eight months, you know, and we're seeing some crazy results really nudging those categories in our industry. Most of our clients have got categories, subcategories and product sets. Nudging them from, you know, maybe that stubborn Mid page 1 to really pushing them up.

Theo Roberts [00:22:09]: Yeah, link building, I would say is extremely important. If you're not building links to those beautiful, beautifully optimized pages, then you're just doing half the job. Or I'll say a third of the job. Yeah. You need to. So once that page is technically optimized, so it's fast loading, everything is displaying as it should. So technically sound, your site health is great. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:22:39]: Once that content has been created and add to the site again, that's the next third. The Final third is yes, building those links to that page through like digital PRPs. So outreach and GPR is so important so that again those link, those third party websites linking back to your site need to be as relevant in content and the topic and the overall website need. It needs to be. Right. Yeah, you can't be if you're featured, if you're a store that sells outdoor gear and then the site that's linking back to you is all about, let's say the automotive industry, it doesn't make sense that it's not relevant. Just like how last year Semrush said that the number one ranking factor was content relevancy. The same thing can be applied to the, like that relevancy that you need to be ensuring that all the backlinks to your site are relevant.

Theo Roberts [00:23:34]: And again that's going to help with referral traffic as well because users landing on those site, if they are in that, if they're interested in outdoor gear and they're finding the piece of the content extremely interesting again and they are in need of a, that certain product that that third party site is discussing. And again you want your brand mentioned in these pieces as well so that Google is seeing your brand as the authority again, your referral traffic is going to potentially see that rise and that increase because it's all relevant. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:24:04]: I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm thinking it's not that difficult really. You know, people just really complicate it, don't they? Like if, if you're sitting there as a brand listening to us and you've got a particular set of products that are in categories and subcategories. Look at those categories and go back to the fundamentals of, you know, the, the technical side of that category. You know, the category is a bit of a cheat code, isn't it? Categories. You all got them and you've all got them maybe substandard to what they could be. Absolutely hone in, zoom into that. The categories with the most commercial intent, I mean we could talk about a few variants to that but ultimately deciding on what categories we're going to go for and that could be obviously an element of demand, profit margin that is available, you know, and your relationship with those manufacturers, it might be your own brands, you've got a lot more margin, a lot of different discussions there. But ultimately decide on those categories and whether it's three or four categories and we're going to absolutely make sure technically, you know, that they are unbelievable content wise, all the things we just Talked about, you know, that sort of scrapes the surface really.

Richard Hill [00:25:09]: But then building links into those categories, it's almost like an E comm cheat code, isn't it? Right, yeah. You know, it's like, well, I over complicate things, but you don't really need to, you know, building links into and digital PR into those categories with brand mentions and so forth. You know, you've obviously had some pretty, pretty, pretty extreme success with that. Maybe you got any examples of particular products where you've sort of particular clients, maybe without saying names. Exactly. But where I think it's fair to say, you get so far with the technical, you get so far with the content. And then if it's a really competitive niche, it needs that extra sort of laser focus link building digital PR element.

Theo Roberts [00:25:49]: You have a great example actually. So we have a client who sells shelving and they were competing on page one. So they were on page one for shelving, but they're competing with the likes of Screw Fix B and Q Jisk, those big, big players, big brands and big, big UK brands. And again, the SERP was very volatile. Every day the top five, the, the client and the competitors in that top five, they would change position around, moving around, so would go from number 2 to number 5 to number 3 to 1 to 2e. So it was just very volatile. So again, our priority and the client's priority was again stabilizing that position. And we wanted to of course be number one for that keyword.

Theo Roberts [00:26:32]: So we carefully built backlinks to that specific category that is our category link gap process. And within three weeks we were number one on the SERP and we remained there. So it works, it really works. And anyone who told you differently, they're lying to you because again, the proof is in the pudding. We're getting these results. And again, from an SEO perspective, traditionally people would say, oh yeah, you've gotta wait three, four months till you see the real results. But this kind of, yeah, tells you a lot different.

Richard Hill [00:27:06]: Yeah, interesting, interesting. So we're sort of, we've gone, you know, this, this latest and greatest AI movement. But then what we're saying is, you know, a lot of traditional SEO is more important than ever, you know, more important than ever. But of course there are some connotations and, and you know, different LLMs are drawing on different information and relying on different information. And as we record this, no doubt about time we put this out and in a month from now and two months from now, there'll be different sort of schools of thought and you know, Reddit, you know, as we both spoke about probably two months ago, our talks that we did, you know, was a big focus and then there's rumors and we're seeing that maybe just, just nudging down a smidge, but still very much, you know, a great source of. A great source of information for the LLMs, but also a great source of information for SEOs and e comm stores to get ideas from what is really happening now, you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story, or maybe just some straightforward technical help to amp up your performance. Now that's where Ecom now comes in, a partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your e commerce categories to refining your product descriptions.

Richard Hill [00:28:30]: Now, whether you're just starting out or have been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order one off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround. Simply choose what you need. So it's been a very big week in E commerce and in AI and in the world of Shopify. If you don't know, we got awarded the Shopify plus partner tick a couple of weeks back, which is incredible for the agency. But it's quite timely in terms of the sort of announcement that they made. Shopify and ChatGPT, this sort of integration that they've had a page live for quite some time where you can go and register your interest for when there's an integration there. But very exciting, you know, where it's only a matter of maybe days, months, weeks.

Richard Hill [00:29:20]: We're not quite sure where you'll be able to grab this thing or obviously on your desktop as well. Go to ChatGPT, you know, find me that camping torch, you know, and then buy it. Now, in terms of our industry, when that happens, opportunity is the word, I think. Opportunity for our clients, for the, for the, for the first movers. So having that visibility in AI, you know, we're sort of saying, well, it's traditional SEO and there's a few things, but that's coming at such a speed where you are going to have to rank, be visible in the LLMs. And obviously a lot of the traditional stuff we're saying is obviously going to help, but it's obviously making sure that you are visible in the LLMs. So those, those that are listening now that are thinking, how do I check? What do I do to find out how visible I AM in the LLM. So when people are searching and very soon, when the day comes that you can actually buy from ChatGPT, Claude and Perplexity and so forth.

Richard Hill [00:30:25]: You know, how do our listeners sort of assess their AI visibility?

Theo Roberts [00:30:29]: There's loads of tools out there now about art evolving as well and they're embedding this AI visibility piece into their software. So ah, rest, for example released Brand Radar. So that was a great tool. And it was so interesting looking using that tool to look into our clients and seeing we've been doing a great job because they're featuring already. Yep. One of our clients. 2000 mentions within ChatGPT. Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:30:55]: With an additional 460 AI overviews. So you might think, oh wow, they've done that really fast. But again what we're saying, yeah, it's based on that foundation, what we've been doing for the last two, three years where you're again taking those questions, again answering them. It's all about that semantic question piece that we were told a couple of years ago was so important and I just really fear that lots of people out there just ignored, ignored it.

Richard Hill [00:31:21]: Again.

Theo Roberts [00:31:22]: If you embraced it, you would have already set a solid foundation and you're probably find that you're winning terms of this AI visibility piece. So again, using this tool to look at where you're at, looking at where your competitors are, what competitor, what AI overviews are your competitors featured in where what you're. That you're not and then being able to again adapt and enhance your content strategy to be able to then capture the audience who again are searching for these queries.

Richard Hill [00:31:52]: I love it. I think it's quite timely because we've just launched our AI visibility tool.

Theo Roberts [00:31:57]: Yep.

Richard Hill [00:31:58]: So I think if the listeners go to ecomone.com forward/AI visibility, we've got a tool there that will look at your site and look at the gaps as well, which is very intriguing. Obviously when we talk about SEO, you know, we are quite often trying to find the gaps and the opportunities. So it will show how you score in AI, but it also show the gaps. So that's giving you sort of the cheat code and what needs to be created to fill in the gaps. So econ1.com forward/AI hyphen visibility.

Theo Roberts [00:32:28]: Yeah. And again, this is just so exciting because it's again, plugging the gap is so important and I think again it's, it's just lays down that foundation for you. If you're just starting this journey of AI visibility and being featured in these LLMs. It's just going to allow, it's going to help our. Again, we're doing so much more for our clients right now because again, you have to. The movie everywhere, everything is everything everywhere all at once and everything. I can't remember. It's a title.

Theo Roberts [00:32:58]: Won an Oscar. I won an Oscar. We get it, we can get it. But that's what I've got to be everywhere. You've got to be everywhere. You've got to be optimizing for traditional search engines, you've got to be optimizing for the LLMs and AI. You've got to have that visibility within these communities and forums as well as the organic social piece as well. Again, search is more important now than ever in my opinion.

Richard Hill [00:33:22]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:33:22]: And I think a lot of people listening will, will realize the importance of organic search and how again, it's evolving.

Richard Hill [00:33:30]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:33:30]: And it's exciting because again it's, as you mentioned earlier, it's opportunity.

Richard Hill [00:33:34]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:33:35]: More opportunity means again, more work. But it just means that we're going to be able to reach a great amount of people.

Richard Hill [00:33:43]: That SEO acronym Search everywhere optimization has sort of been banded around and it's so, so true. Isn't it though? You know, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where people are searching really. In if you're a, if you've got the mindset as a business owner, marketeer, agency, if you are going to be testing, trying, you know, whatever LLM platform, social media comes out, how can we appear on that platform? Search everywhere, you know, whether, you know, you know you're going to be looking at socials, you're going to be looking at LLMs, you're going to be looking at Google, you're going to be looking at Bing, you're going to be looking at YouTube, you know, as a potential customer of your things. How are we going to get a place placement for different types of searches, queries in those platforms? Those platforms change in terms of their maybe priority for different industries, but ultimately search everywhere, you know, where. You know, I was looking at my TV example earlier, explaining it earlier, you know, I'm on YouTube, I'm on Google, I'm on Chat GPT. And then I was like questioning the reliability of the information on chat GPT to be honest, because I know it's getting a lot better but still I don't take it as gospel some of the things. So then I'm straight onto manufacturers, websites, you know, then that's making me think, you know, something that we've been praying We've been preaching for many years, you know, as a manufacturer, as a E comm store, if you can get listed on a manufacturer website, which is not that easy anymore, but still, if you are, you know, a trusted retailer distributor in the UK or anywhere in the world really of a big manufacturer, if you can get on the where to buy in terms of an authority backlink and an authority piece, that's, that's a huge bit.

Richard Hill [00:35:21]: But that search everywhere optimization. Yeah, you know, it's like, it's literally like a, one of the biggest opportunities for an E Comm store right now is to embrace this chain, this change. Because I think a lot of people are like panic in the streets. Oh, you know, all this nonsense on LinkedIn. SEO's dead because you don't need to know about anything about Google anymore. You just need to do this, this and this in chat GPT. It's like, come on, let's, let's not be silly.

Theo Roberts [00:35:45]: Yeah, I think as well it's so important because it's going to help you future proof your business. I mentioned this in my, a couple of months ago that. Okay, there, there's two things, two facts I want to give you. So one, it's that 64% of millennials use Tik Tok as a search engine. So again, I think people assume there that young people, of course they're on Tik Tok. This is a, they assume it's a platform for young people. What's also true is that There are over 7 in the UK, over 7 million women over the age of 50 who currently aren't being being served ads. So that is a missed opportunity.

Theo Roberts [00:36:23]: And I think that's the reason for that is because when I speak to maybe clients or potential clients about TikTok sometimes and they kind of said, oh no, that's not a platform for us. You know, it's, it's not, it's not our target market, our target audience aren't there. I think it's an assumption, a big assumption because that second that I gave you paints a completely different picture.

Richard Hill [00:36:45]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:36:46]: Also I think they would say, yeah, Facebook's where our demographic are, which again is true right now. But 20, 25 years from now, when those millennials are now slightly older, it doesn't. Are they. You're expecting them or I guess you're assuming they're all gonna migrate over to Facebook and they're gonna abandon Tick Tock. But let's really think about it.

Richard Hill [00:37:11]: Fired from years, that's a lifetime.

Theo Roberts [00:37:13]: Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:37:13]: They'll be in there they'll have a new platform in their glasses, they'll be blinking away and they'll just be changing things.

Theo Roberts [00:37:19]: That's one. So that's the future. So we don't know what the future again that search is going to expand when new platforms emerge. But right now TikTok is a growing platform.

Richard Hill [00:37:28]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:37:28]: And we know it is being used. There's a whole TikTok shop, there's people searching for products, there are ads being sold, there are people not being served ads. So again it's just a great opportunity for clients to again protect themselves, future proof themselves and then acquire more users. So I definitely think really having that presence, that omnipresence is so important.

Richard Hill [00:37:52]: Yeah, I think you got to try these things. I, you know, I think there's a lot of brands that are still maybe a bit scared. You know, we've got brands that you know, do million pound on TikTok lives, no problem. We've got other people that haven't, haven't got a TikTok account. You know, I mean obviously that's, that's, there's a whole array of different businesses at different stages. But if a brand isn't creating any tick tocks, shorts, video rich category content, you know, are they pretty invisible then on those platforms? Are we saying?

Theo Roberts [00:38:19]: Yeah, so if you've got, if you don't have a TikTok account and you're not creating content or you're not doing TikTok ads or that kind, that, that piece there, it's definitely, it's obviously important for the platform but as we know it's also important enough for the search engine results page because those videos are going to then feature, I think one example that I know where TikTok and Facebook videos and YouTube videos appear. All those again when I talk about those videos there, I've just mentioned TikTok, I've mentioned Instagram, I mentioned YouTube. So three different video platforms appearing potentially on that search results page. It's not just one video opportunity. Now you've got to make sure each format correctly and that again you're providing that for potential users.

Richard Hill [00:39:04]: So it's interesting as you're saying that I'm thinking about our agency and the, you know, the biggest growth we have in our business is, is, you know, there's a few things going on but that interest in the creative side of, you know, paid media. Yeah, you know, it's the, the ability to run paid ads is getting easier and easier because there's a lot more AI in the tools and that's great. But what that does, it means everyone's got this same technology but if you are the ones that are creating more and more and better creatives on the platforms, you're getting that jump. And that's what we always try and you know, and we go, you know, let's take Google shopping for a minute. You know, Google itself in a Google shopping, you know, it's the AI side of it is really, really good.

Theo Roberts [00:39:47]: Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:39:47]: But what's not really, really good out of the box if you like, is its ability to set up a good feed. But that's why we have a feed team here that are I think the best feed team in the country. We were, obviously we're going to say that but they, you know, some of the guys have been doing feeds for 20 years and that's where we get this jump, you know, and this advantage over other agencies, other people in, in the industry. And similarly with, you know, we're talking about creating content, video in this instance for say paid ads and organic. You know, it's, you got to, you got to really try to embrace some of these areas where. Oh, you know, it's like going back to the feed. Oh, we've got a feed. Yes, it goes into the website, pulls the, all the information and it's great.

Richard Hill [00:40:28]: Well no, that's just a really, really feed similar with. Oh yeah, we did a couple of Tik Tok videos and it didn't work. Well, hang on, what are you, what's the consistency? What are you, what are you doing? You know, we're literally hiring in that area literally nearly every other week at the moment on the sort of the creative, the Meta, the TikTok side. We're off doing shoots and shooting stuff that you know, a year ago just wasn't part of our business. But it's, you know, it's feeding into those platforms to increase visibility and search on those platforms. But then that is feeding Google for example with you know, the, the likes of short form video as well.

Theo Roberts [00:41:02]: Yeah, I think video is really important right now and think of it this way as well. You've got people searching on YouTube for their query as well because they know they want a video for it. They again you can then embed that video into a, let's say a how to guide on your website. You can also obviously feed that into Google for your paid ads so that obviously there's more content in your performance Maps campaign. So there's just, yeah, video can be used on all these channels to really help your, your, your Search your, your marketing strategy. But at the same time, I'll actually, I'm gonna be completely honest. So we created one piece of content. I think it was top 10 survival skills.

Theo Roberts [00:41:47]: And so then when you search survival skills, just survival skills. Our client was then featured within that AI overview, which is amazing because again, we created a well structured piece of written content that was all optimized, internally linked and then that again, just great SEO practice. And we appeared in that overview. But honestly we lost that after a few months because Google started serving in the AI overview for survival skills. Google was sourcing video content instead of what it was a few months ago, which was the written content. So that actually again, it was a bit disappointing. But then it allows us to establish next steps. So what do we need to do? Well, again, if Google is now for some of these queries and wanting video content, then that's part of our strategy.

Theo Roberts [00:42:33]: If There's a top 10 survival skills videos where we're demonstrating what these skills are, again, a great piece of content is answering the query. We can use it within the query and the written content to enhance that further. And that is going to really help capture audiences and increase our AI visibility.

Richard Hill [00:42:53]: Yeah, you know, as you're saying that, yeah, I think there's a big piece there that is this freshness, you know, when, you know, we do X, Y, Z and okay, and we're ranking really well and we're getting the visibility and we're getting the click through and the impressions and the click through and so forth. But then when things drop down, this is like, this is a thing. I know we've, you know, we've been spending a lot of time on and we're building some internal tools now, but big opportunity. Because the reality is, I think more and more firms are investing in SEO and that's what we're seeing. We've never really seen demand like it, you know, in all, in a lot of our services. You know, it's a good time to be an E Comm. To be an E Com retailer if you're progressive and you're moving forward. But the reality is the SERP is changing quite a lot.

Richard Hill [00:43:36]: Is what is the, is the theme here? So if you're obviously tracking where your drops and increases are, but the drops, you know, you know your position, 1, 2, 3. And then the week, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, eight weeks later, hang on, we've dropped to number five. Well, there's a reason. Usually someone's come along, created something or you know, the, you know, it's pulling on different resources from elsewhere. So if you're monitoring the drops and then you've got a routine that is this sort of content refresh routine which I know you guys, you know, spend a lot of time on, you know, you're also gearing up to sort of protect those rankings. You're not like. Right, We've optimized and it's done. No, we are tracking for the drops and then every three months or so we're refreshing some of our, maybe the odd drop that's been done.

Richard Hill [00:44:21]: I think that's quite, quite an important thing to say.

Theo Roberts [00:44:23]: Yeah. So those legacy content pieces on your website are again a great opportunity because obviously they're slightly aged compared to new content. So again, if they were bringing in traffic and maybe they've dropped off slightly. So think how can we re optimize these to again to increase the rankings that maybe I've dropped? But then also that legacy content piece, we can maybe optimize it further for AI and those by enhancing the copy, adding more data, more information. Again, that serpent is. This piece is also really important because if we've dropped in rankings and competitors are now above us again. Why are they above us?

Richard Hill [00:45:02]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:45:02]: What are they doing?

Richard Hill [00:45:03]: It's quite often that formatting piece, isn't it? As you alluded to earlier. You know, just the fact that you've got a wall of text. They did. Okay, but hang on, that's just sort of 1996 sort of thing where the, the time is spent to format it to make it easier on the eye. You know, the summary at the top, the, you know, the H1s, the H2s, the breakdown, insert the video, the summary to hold that reader on the page, which is also a signal. So we've covered a lot of ground today, a lot of ground. I feel like we've, we've also scratched the service in the same respect, but obviously a great, great episode. So I want you to think big now.

Richard Hill [00:45:44]: We're thinking about one prediction for the future of E commerce, SEO, that people will go, gosh, Theo is absolutely nuts. There's no way that's going to be a thing. Or in reality, it is already becoming a thing. What's your one sort of big prediction for SEO in E commerce?

Theo Roberts [00:46:03]: It's not that people are going to stop saying SEO is dead, because I predict that's going to keep being posted every year. However, that's clearly not true. But what I think a prediction is, it's gonna, it's again, in practice SEO from what we've said today, I think we've kind of established for everybody that the foundation of SEO is the same. Obviously there's a lot more to do now. Yeah, my prediction is there's going to be a lot more to do. As we've mentioned, we're not just optimizing for the search engine anymore. We again, that organic social piece is so important, that community piece is so important. The, the third party mentions and brand mentions on these really authoritative sites.

Theo Roberts [00:46:47]: It's going to be more important than ever as well. All of these things come together and again, as we make last but not least the AI LLM piece to really make sure we're featured in those AI and the content we're creating for them, that is going to mean that SEO is beyond the serp.

Richard Hill [00:47:05]: Yeah.

Theo Roberts [00:47:05]: And that is the future of SEO, in my opinion.

Richard Hill [00:47:08]: SEO is beyond the serp. You heard it here first.

Theo Roberts [00:47:12]: I think a lot of people need to maybe stop spending their time discussing what SEO is now called, whether that be GEO, AEO, etc. And spend more time doing, doing the thing, making sure you're actually establishing your brand, establishing the website for search so that that foundation is laid where your technical SEO is perfect, where that content is beautifully created, that you're really answering these user queries, that it's form correctly, that it's got those tables like data in that, that we know LLMs love. And then again getting those third party sites to backlink to those pages.

Richard Hill [00:47:52]: Yeah, brilliant. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show for the third time. For those that want to find out more about you, more about the work that you do, what's the best way to do that?

Theo Roberts [00:48:02]: I'm on LinkedIn. I think everyone's on LinkedIn. So you can find me at Theo Roberts. I'm sure you'll find me if you type in Theo Roberts, Econ1 Again, I think there's so much on LinkedIn about AI LLMs that we want to maybe. I think within SEO it can be a bit divisive if we just look at LinkedIn because people, yeah. Think it's one or the other. When really as we've, I've said a few times now, it's about both. It's about, yeah, everyone, there's two true.

Theo Roberts [00:48:30]: Two things can be true at once. That's another phrase I really like. So I think let's stop arguing and let's come together and let's really make sure that we're doing what's right for the client. Because again, that's the most important thing that you're doing what's right for your brand, for your client and making sure that we've established in that world of search.

Richard Hill [00:48:50]: So thanks for coming on the show, Theo. It's been an absolute blast. And for those that want to find out more about their AI visibility and their AI visibility score, we mentioned it earlier but what's the best place to do that?

Theo Roberts [00:49:01]: So the best place to do that is by visiting econ1.com forward/AI hyphen visibility. Again, just being able to do more and just establish those gaps and then being able to plug them with a solid content strategy. We can help you do that. So yeah, get in touch.

Richard Hill [00:49:18]: Brilliant. Well, thanks for coming on the show. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or Follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next one.