E224: Sophie Penny

Richard Hill [00:00:00]:
Is email marketing dead, Sophie?

Sophie Penny [00:00:01]:
It absolutely isn't.

Richard Hill [00:00:05]:
What would you say some of the biggest shifts you've seen with email marketing and AI?

Sophie Penny [00:00:09]:
AI is huge in email at the moment. It's able to predict when your customer next wants to hear from you and what they want to hear about.

Richard Hill [00:00:16]:
So how many of you listening are doing that? What would you recommend to our listeners to help encourage people to sign up to things so then you can market to them in the future?

Sophie Penny [00:00:29]:
You don't treat every client or treat every brand the same. There isn't a one-size-fits-all.

Richard Hill [00:00:34]:
So is email for every e-commerce brand?

Sophie Penny [00:00:37]:
The short answer is it's not.

Richard Hill [00:00:44]:
Hi, I'm Richard Hill, and welcome to another episode of the Ecom at One podcast. In this episode, I chat with Sophie Penny, Senior Account Manager here at Ecom One. Now, Sophie spends Nearly every day working with our clients at Ecom One on their email marketing strategy and implementation with our team here. So I knew I had to get her on and finally she agreed. So here we are, a fabulous episode all about email marketing and e-commerce. We cover a lot in this episode: segmentation, deliverability, and those pesky sign-up forms— how to get people to sign up to your lists and stay engaged with your brand. If you do me one favor and hit the like or subscribe wherever you listen to this episode, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now, Let's get into it.

Richard Hill [00:01:31]:
Welcome to the podcast, Sophie. How you doing?

Sophie Penny [00:01:32]:
I'm good. Thank you. Good to be here.

Richard Hill [00:01:35]:
Good, good, good. Well, let's get into it, shall we? So I think, um, I've been doing this a while and I think every, every, um, week almost something is dead, you know, it's usually SEO to be fair. SEO is dead, dead, dead, dead. And obviously it's been resurrected, shall we say, hundreds of times because these things never really die, I think. But is email marketing dead, Sophie?

Sophie Penny [00:01:59]:
Well, it's like, as you say, every other week something else is proclaimed dead. It's a new channel, it's dead. And now it comes around to email marketing, and, you know, it absolutely isn't. I think the thing is, email marketing is one of the, you know, the best channels for return on investment, and it will continue to be. I think maybe what is, you know, is a bit dead and is dying out is that kind of blanket email marketing, you know, sending your entire list the same email only when you've got promotion or a sale on and calling it a day at that. I think there's so much more to it now, the personalisation and, you know, the segmentation. So no, it's not dead. Maybe an aspect to it is a bit dead, but moving forward, yeah, there's a lot still in email marketing.

Richard Hill [00:02:47]:
Yeah, so it's not dead. But doing it poorly and old in an old way, that's very sort of maybe a basic way. Yeah, maybe it doesn't work. So therefore, if you're not really doing much with your email other than just blanket sending and going, it's not working. Same as any service. If you're doing some base SEO, you'll go, SEO doesn't work. You're doing some base shopping ad feed maintenance, but not really doing a great deal. It's not working.

Richard Hill [00:03:10]:
It's dead and so forth. So it's very much alive.

Sophie Penny [00:03:13]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:03:14]:
And kicking, I would say. So let's get into it then. So I think, you know, most podcasts we use the AI word over the last year or so. You know, what would you say some of the biggest shifts you've seen with email marketing and AI?

Sophie Penny [00:03:29]:
Yes, I would say AI is huge in email at the moment, and it's growing even more. You know, I'm sure this year we'll see even more advances. I think some of the biggest things that we're particularly using at the moment is the way that it's You know, you can use it for the sort of predictive analytics side of things. So, you know, before you'd have to do a big data deep dive, which would take a lot of time, a lot of resource to see, you know, what's the customer going to buy next? When are they going to buy next? You know, what is their predicted lifetime value? And things like that, that they're already at your hands now. You know, AI is able to predict this. It's, you know, it's able to predict when your customer next wants to hear from you. And what they want to hear about. And so personalization now is no longer just hello and inserting their first name into it like it used to be.

Sophie Penny [00:04:19]:
It's now actually things that feel like, you know, less like a sales email and more like the logical next step.

Richard Hill [00:04:26]:
Yeah.

Sophie Penny [00:04:27]:
And obviously, you know, with segmentation as well, being able to segment using AI, you know, knowing what customers want before maybe, you know, they even know that they want it. Yeah. Yeah, it's just there's absolutely so much you can do with it now.

Richard Hill [00:04:40]:
So predict was the word I pulled out from that answer, I think. Yeah, like you say, you know, let's maybe go into that a bit more. So typically, you know, in the olden days, you know, hey first name, you know, here's my blank email. Oh, they've got my first name right. If they've got the field in there correctly, you know, if it said hey Dave or yeah. Yeah. But obviously, you know, old school email, you know, first name and then a, you know, a blanket email to everybody. But obviously what we're saying now is the AI and AIs and the various tech that we'll come to are able to predict on an individual basis based on, you know, specifics of that particular customer's journey.

Richard Hill [00:05:20]:
Maybe give our listeners some examples of some of the things it's sort of very specifically useful for predicting what to send and when to send.

Sophie Penny [00:05:28]:
Yeah, so it can look at a customer's entire journey. So, you know, all the products that they have browsed, they've looked at, once they've added to their cart once they've gone through with purchasing, and it can use that data to then— we can, you know, add in blocks, uh, product blocks to serve them like the logical next product that would align with what they have looked at previously. You know, have they bought something previously or continued to look at something and then they need the next, the next step in that, in that set of products? Yeah, or something that accompanies it, an upsell, cross-sell. Um, whereas before, as I say, you have to dig into that data yourself. And, you know, people just don't have the resource for that.

Richard Hill [00:06:06]:
Yeah, there's nothing more frustrating, is I think you've ordered something, then maybe you've got an email that just is not in flow with what you've bought. Or they've asked you— you've just bought, um, trying to think of an example— you just bought a razor with razor blades, and then 3 days later, hey, do you want any razor blades? Well, I only just received the flipping razor, and I bought the razor blades. Whereas if you'd— if the, you know, if the tech or the person managing the tech had realized actually if you bought the razor and razor blades, you don't send the razor blade email, whereas if you've just bought the razor, you may send the razor blade email. But if you've not got, you know, the data to analyze or AI is analyzing the data, so. Yeah, interesting times, interesting times. I think there's nothing worse than getting an email that's, you know, like I just explained, you know, you bought something and you get an email that's just not congruent with what you've bought. But then I think there's these sort of, these emails that can be sent that, you know, I'm thinking like Mother's Day, Father's Day, certain days of the year where some people don't necessarily want to receive those emails depending on, you know, family circumstances in that example. You know, what's your thoughts on that? You know, what maybe brands that are doing that well, what are options for our listeners to think about when they're maybe targeting specific days?

Sophie Penny [00:07:22]:
Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about that. So I think one of the first brands, if not the first brand to do it, was Bloom and Wild. And obviously they sell flowers and gifting and things like Mother's Day. It's very course they're offering, you know, that's— it's their products, it's related. And so I think when they did it, it was really thoughtful. It's a great example of personalization. It's what you need to be doing. Whereas now, and I think specifically this year, we've seen you know, hundreds of brands send that email out, and not all of them have, you know, Mother's Day, Father's Day core to their offering.

Sophie Penny [00:07:56]:
It's more peripheral, and they might have only have sent one email about Mother's Day anyway. And so it becomes kind of a lot of noise, and I think it, it takes, you know, it takes how genuine it is away, and it becomes a little bit performative. And so my opinion would be, you know, if, if these sort of celebrations are core to your offering, they're core to what you're selling, then absolutely, you know, send an email and say, you know, do you want to hear about this? Is this a sensitive subject? But if it's something that is actually not that relevant, it might be better just to be more careful about how you do put across those actual comms about the day. Um, and one brand I saw do it perfectly was, um, Thoughtful, that sell the, um, that sell the cards. They just sent an email saying update your preferences. So instead of actually going out of your way and putting it in the subject line, you know, reminding people about Mother's Day, you can do it in a very sensitive way and say, just let us know which of these holidays you want to hear about. Yeah. And then someone can just go in and they can do that.

Sophie Penny [00:08:55]:
They feel like they're really being listened to and you're only getting what you need.

Richard Hill [00:08:59]:
Yeah, that makes perfect sense the way you explained it really. So how many of you listening are doing that? I think, you know, maybe look at those preferences, look at those, I don't know, when people are signing up, give them an option to, do you want to hear about this, this, this, this, this? You know, there's a little checklist maybe with the 4 or 5 key dates in the calendar, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Christmas, Any others you would maybe that you come across that are maybe, um, could have got potential to be a sensitive day, or not everybody celebrates Easter, maybe?

Sophie Penny [00:09:27]:
Yeah, I think, yeah, any sort of holiday, religious holidays, giving those opportunities, anything you focus on that not everyone might celebrate or be interested in hearing about.

Richard Hill [00:09:37]:
Great. So, okay, I feel like we're picking up speed, picking up pace now. Um, so So email's not dead. Um, you got to be thoughtful in your approach, but I think a lot of people, um, listen to this podcast because we talk a lot about revenue and driving revenue in, in the right way, sustainable way. You know, what are maybe 3 fairly quick things our listeners can do maybe today with email, with their e-com store, that's going to help increase revenue?

Sophie Penny [00:10:06]:
Yeah, so I'd say going back to the basics, One of the main things is making sure you've got those abandonment flows or automations set up. You know, the amount of customers on your website that are abandoning at different stages, and you need to have kind of all 3 stages there. So, you know, some people are browsing and then they're abandoning. Some people are browsing and then adding it to their cart but not going to the checkout process. And then there's the people that are heading to the checkout and then there's some sort of friction that's stopping them there. And those, those 3 different stages need to be spoken to in a different way. They're, you know, they're a different level of interest.

Richard Hill [00:10:41]:
So obviously we've got 3 potential automations there, but with that first automation, if they've never bought anything off you, obviously it's almost impossible to market to them via email. So what would you recommend to our listeners to help encourage people to sign up to things so then you can market to them in the future?

Sophie Penny [00:10:57]:
Yeah, so I'd say, you know, you always need a sign-up form on your website and What we found to be best practice is having that pop-up and, you know, incentivizing customers. And that incentive is going to be different dependent on what type of, you know, brand you are. You know, if you're B2B, sometimes an incentive that's a discount is not going to be as relevant as if you're, you know, direct-to-consumer and they are actually price-led. So you just need to think about what's going to incentivize your type of customer to sign up so you can get their details? What's going to really drive them to that purchase?

Richard Hill [00:11:32]:
What, so maybe some sort of creative things you've seen, you've implemented to get those signups? I think when we say, oh, incentivise them to sign up, most people think 10% off, and that's not what we're saying here, I believe.

Sophie Penny [00:11:44]:
No, I mean, it can be, that can work, but that's not the only thing you can do. I mean, one thing we've done that works really well is a spin to win, and, you know, it doesn't always have to be all the prizes are giving away margin, you know, things like guides. So for example, you know, we work with a supplement brand and guides on, you know, how to use supplements, how to kind of train your body, you know, how to do weightlifting or loading up, um, bulking, etc. That is the sort of content that they are finding useful. So you're giving them value, but you're not, you're not giving away your profit.

Richard Hill [00:12:18]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's the— so going back to the original question, then we've got these, um, 3 ways to, um, to help 'Our listeners generate revenue quick.' So we've got the 3 potential, um, follow-up emails for the people that are browsing, the people that are browsing and added, and the people that have gone to the checkout but haven't actually checked out. What else have we got then?

Sophie Penny [00:12:42]:
Yeah, I would say segmentation is a huge one. I think that a lot of people overlook it, but actually, you know, looking at who's actually engaged in your list, that is going to be excellent. And another side to that is that with some platforms, um, that you use for email, they do charge by your amount of the amount of people you've got in there, amount of profiles. And if you've got loads of profiles in there but a lot of them aren't engaged, you are wasting your money. And so, you know, you're taking, you're taking a hit there, whereas you're going to make more revenue if you're just focusing on those more engaged customers. Um, and also just aiming your, aiming your emails at the people that are actually interested. You're kind of wasting your time if you're creating a lot of content and then sending it to an audience that have actually showed no interest in that. Yeah, it's like going back to the supplement brand, people that are purchasing protein, you should be able to segment them and just send emails aimed at them.

Sophie Penny [00:13:33]:
People that are, you know, buying something that's like Slender, where they're trying to cut down their weight, the opposite of bulking. Yeah, it's the opposite of bulking. So you really just need to target separately and not waste time sending to the wrong audiences.

Richard Hill [00:13:46]:
So we've got two. Segmenting, I think, is, you know, my favourite. Like, say if you're trying to maybe bulk but you're getting sent things that are the opposite, then relationship's a bit like, you know, something's broken with their marketing. Do I really trust that brand to then, you know, advise me in the right way about my bulking or my dieting, whatever it may be? Not really, because they haven't got that fundamental thing. So getting those segmentations correct, but then following through with them, it's a real key thing. You can really sort of break that sort of trust with the potential, um, Customer. So third thing then, what would be your third thing, Sophie?

Sophie Penny [00:14:24]:
So I'd say, you know, with optimising, you know, optimise for the conversion that you want and not just the click-through. So, you know, really telling the customer what you want them to do, what is the next step for them. Sometimes there can be a lot of noise on an email. They're not actually sure what you're asking them to do, what the point of the email is. It needs to have a very clear intent. You need to tell, you know, tell the customer what you want them to do, tell them the action you want them to take. And, you know, make sure the email flows towards that action, essentially.

Richard Hill [00:14:51]:
So obviously we've got a lot of listeners and a lot of clients at our end in the automotive space. Obviously you've given them 3 very specific areas to focus on that are going to give quick revenue. But when it comes to automotive, maybe you could sprinkle in some examples of how that would work practically with the automotive industry.

Sophie Penny [00:15:06]:
Yeah, so what's brilliant with the automotive industry is that you're selling a lifestyle. You know, people really have a massive identity that's tied with the products. So, you know, they're fans and they can become brand advocates very easily. So really good things that I would recommend with that is things like user-generated content is something that we use a lot. We will run a competition where, you know, customers can send in photos of their classic cars that they've rebuilt using parts, you know, from the website that we sell. And if they get used in our content, if they get used in our emails, on the social media, then they can get a voucher. So, you know, you're really creating this loyal customer base and, you know, they're becoming advocates. And also, from that you can give them a lot of information.

Sophie Penny [00:15:51]:
So, you know, with car shows, car shows that you're attending, um, other events, how— tips and tricks, you know, blog posts, how to do this, how to do that, where to go and when. There's just a lot that you can really layer into your customer base.

Richard Hill [00:16:07]:
I think that's brilliant because I think anybody that's listening will think, actually, no matter what niche you're in, really, you know, there's a loyal customer base-ish. You know, cars is a probably an easier one in that obviously most people are into cars-ish, but then we're talking about classic cars in this example, you know. And if you're into a specific brand, you probably wouldn't mind going to an event about that brand. I know I'm mad for my cars and I'm looking forward to this year going to various car events to do with some of our clients, but also the brand. I'm a BMW fan, um, to go to BMW events and so forth. But then also You know, as a BMW fan in my instance, but if you're into Triumph in, in, you know, you've got various clients that sell Triumph and Land Rover and, um, obviously to then see user-generated content or provide user-generated content of me maybe at an event or somebody else at the event and I want to go to that event, you're helping build community within that brand. You're helping the community within that product set. Um, and then there's the how-to guides, there's the blog posts, you know, then before you know it, actually, yeah, we can create quite a lot of stuff around this.

Richard Hill [00:17:12]:
Sort of industry. But so you've sold— I know the answer to this, but you've sold millions and millions and millions of pounds worth of parts for classic cars, haven't you?

Sophie Penny [00:17:23]:
Yes.

Richard Hill [00:17:24]:
Who'd have thought that maybe 3 or 4 years ago?

Sophie Penny [00:17:26]:
I know. Yeah, absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:17:29]:
So obviously some great discussion there around sort of segmentation, different types of content, very specific automotive. And obviously, hopefully that's very relatable to no matter what niche you're in. But I think we've got these sort of blanket emails, you know, that we talk about. We use the word blanket and whether that's, you know, the same email going to everybody or a segment, you know, what are your— do they still work? Is there a world where these can work?

Sophie Penny [00:17:57]:
I think there is a place for them. I think that with some, you know, big sales, things like Black Friday, often you do want to communicate to a larger audience. But at the same time, when you're sending blanket emails, and if you're doing it often, you might not see, you know, really poor metrics there and then from that campaign. But it's like you're borrowing from, you know, your list in the future, because actually over time you might see all that, that engaged segments, you know, start to drop off a little bit. It's getting smaller because people are losing interest. You know, they're seeing these emails potentially as junk, and they're not junk. But if you're always emailing everybody everything, yeah, you're you're losing interest. Customers are losing interest.

Sophie Penny [00:18:38]:
And as I say, you might not see that straight away, but you'll kind of, you know, you'll see it coming. And in the future months, you'll see that drop-off from the customers.

Richard Hill [00:18:46]:
So in terms of like a rate, is there like a ratio that you would recommend? So we've got this sort of, you know, we're saying bulk email, but you know, it's an announcement about something. Obviously Black Friday is a great example. You know, some brands, we joke in the office, don't we, like 3 weeks before Black Friday, it's like, how many emails can one brand send Never mind in 3 weeks, but in a day, sometimes it's 5 or 6 in one day. What's the sort of, um, do you have like any recommendations on sort of, um, like the split between segmented emails, bulk emails, or I know it's quite a difficult question because it depends on the brand, but any sort of go-to advice you would give?

Sophie Penny [00:19:19]:
I would say there isn't a specific split, but what I would say is that if you do have a, you know, a big sale coming up, Black Friday, then just be very careful about segmentation before and after. So you might have that period, you know, a week period or weekend period where you are sending a couple of bulk emails, but then make sure that you're being highly segmented before and after that period so that you're not just completely damaging deliverability. And also, even when you're sending those blanket emails, still consider your engaged and your unengaged audience. You know, if an audience is really unengaged, then it probably is time to sunset them. So yeah, just still keep bearing things in mind. And yeah, before and after, make sure that you're being really specific.

Richard Hill [00:19:57]:
I think that is like— we think about Black Friday, I think a lot of brands, you know, are sort of building to to the Black Friday month. You know, we could argue whether that's good or bad, but ultimately they're building this big marketing piece around this month period. In effect, it's a weekend, but it's more like a month, isn't it? But obviously, I think what we're saying, and you're saying, is ultimately be very aware of what you're doing post-event— sorry, pre-event and post-event— but also look at it as a massive opportunity because you've spent a lot of time, resource to in theory, get a lot of new business in, but maybe, you know, there's a cost to that because you've discounted or whatever it may be. But where the real value usually is, is the lifetime value of maybe some of those new customers you've acquired through Black Friday, and then obviously that retention of some of the existing clients. So it's very much, okay, we had a great month on a very good weekend, probably of Black Friday, but then what? You know, what's the next sort of 6-month plan, plan-like, and that's where really we can make our money over and above just this one busy, maybe a busy fall of a month for some brands. But then ultimately, many months afterwards, we can be, you should be sort of capitalising that sort of few months after. Any advice you would give on sort of capitalising after the event?

Sophie Penny [00:21:18]:
Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that we do think about a lot. I think something that's quite useful is setting up specific signup forms prior to Black Friday. So then when people are signing up just for your Black Friday deal, deals, you've actually got them in a specific list. So you— oh, you know who's just come in Black Friday, and then you can nurture them differently. So we tend to also set up kind of certain automations after Black Friday for those purchases. So just kind of nudging them into being a customer, not just, you know, you've bought this and then we're going to abandon you. Give them some help, you know.

Sophie Penny [00:21:49]:
If they've bought something that maybe does need a little bit of coaching on how to take care of it or how to use it, etc., give them that post-purchase information and tell them more about the— your company, about your brand, and other products that you stock and give them a little bit of something back. You know, as I say, something useful like guides or any sort of content. I think it's a good way to nurture those new subscribers.

Richard Hill [00:22:11]:
Yeah. So I think if you're with us, if you're with us still, I think it will be good to check, you know, what state you're in, you know, in terms of, okay, you're building up for this big day. You know, if you're listening to this and no doubt you've probably got Easter coming up, for example, maybe won a lot of business around Easter, obviously depends on what you sell. But then what are you, what is set up, you know, some of the things we talked around about segmentation, follow-up, you know, different types and styles of content that are then building that community. You know, what have you got that's gonna sort of stand you in good stead for many, many months, not just the Easter egg that you've sold in a few weeks' time sort of thing. Okay, so we've covered quite a lot of a diverse sort of runaround email, but something I'm intrigued about is design. You know, I'm not a designer, definitely not a designer, but I think when I, you know, maybe inundated as a, you know, as a consumer with various emails coming through, for me, design is still really important. But I think, you know, I see a lot of brands just smashing the sort of, you know, the default template, shall we say, and the emails maybe look the same as they did many, many years ago.

Richard Hill [00:23:22]:
Now, what's your thought on how important design is now?

Sophie Penny [00:23:26]:
Yeah, I think it does vary, you know, dependent on the brand. I think ultimately too much weight is placed on the design. Sometimes an email, you know, it can have a lot going on. It could look like maybe a magazine spread, and it does kind of dilute the messaging. It makes it unclear. As long as an email is very clear, it's concise, it, you know, it shows the customer what you want them to do, it tells them what it needs to do, then that is, that is enough. Now obviously, if you're a lifestyle brand, it is kind of— it is important to have a good, a good-looking email because, you know, you're building the brand through those emails. So it definitely should be considered.

Sophie Penny [00:24:01]:
That's one that it really should play a bigger part. But ultimately, you know, design matters as long as it doesn't kind of compete with the actual content. So, you know, don't send something out that looks horrendous, that, you know, that looks poor. People are going to think, yeah, off-brand, or what's that? Yeah, is this even the brand if they've sent me that? Um, but at the same time, it's not all about the visual. It is more about the content. And I'm seeing more and more recently, especially B2B, you know, sometimes just sending those emails that are just writing, it does work. Um, and so yeah, I think it's a bit of an interrupt, isn't it?

Richard Hill [00:24:34]:
They're used to, uh, yeah, they're used to this color of brand and then, oh, oh, XYZ. Yeah, it's always ecom.com has sent me— what's this text email with a little image of the team or the product? Although this is a Oh, you know, maybe, maybe test that, see what the open rates are on that, or the click-through rates are on that.

Sophie Penny [00:24:54]:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they do, they do well, um, as I say, especially for B2B, but also for consumers, and more people are doing it now. So yeah, I think always test, see what works best for your brand. But yeah, don't always, you know, place all your weight on the design and think it's got to look perfect, because that's not always what's going to lead to the better revenue.

Richard Hill [00:25:15]:
Great. So we're talking about email. You know, we are big advocates of email here at Ecom One, and majority of our successful clients run a, you know, a multi-channel approach to their marketing with us, with, you know, SEO, PPC, email, PR, and so forth. So is email for every e-commerce brand?

Sophie Penny [00:25:36]:
I would say the short answer is it's not, but I will explain that. So, you know, if you're selling products where there is a lot of repeat purchase for that product, if there's lots of similar products, upsells, cross-sells, then it works exceptionally well.

Richard Hill [00:25:53]:
No-brainer.

Sophie Penny [00:25:54]:
Yeah, yeah, definitely. But if you're maybe a once-in-10-years product purchase, if it's a product that, you know, maybe you, you buy, you buy once and then you don't need to buy it again—

Richard Hill [00:26:05]:
what could that be? Like a new hip?

Sophie Penny [00:26:08]:
I mean, I don't want to, you know, call any people out, but maybe things like, um, a hot tub.

Richard Hill [00:26:15]:
Yeah, I was thinking that.

Sophie Penny [00:26:16]:
Yeah, I think that that's something that, you know, you purchase once, you don't—

Richard Hill [00:26:19]:
which you've purchased it again, but you would want email pre-purchase.

Sophie Penny [00:26:24]:
Yes, because it's, it's a big decision purchase. So there is place for some level of email, I would say, essentially for probably all.

Richard Hill [00:26:33]:
So all brands should be doing a level of email?

Sophie Penny [00:26:36]:
Yeah.. But in terms of, oh, I'm going to make loads of revenue for email, I wouldn't expect that if you're, if you're just purchasing this product once, if there's not that much upsell, cross-sell opportunity.

Richard Hill [00:26:48]:
If you've only got one product in your store or two, yeah, there's not really an opportunity for no upsell, cross-sell.

Sophie Penny [00:26:53]:
No. Um, so yeah, that's where I would say, you know, you're probably not going to get that revenue uplift. You should still do something. You should still, you know, be thanking your customers after the purchase and Updating them if there's anything they need to know. But ultimately, what you need to think is, why would a customer want to receive these emails? What can I tell a customer? And if you can't really answer that question with anything that is worthwhile, then that's your answer, basically.

Richard Hill [00:27:19]:
Okay, that was a brilliant answer. I really— yeah, it made me think the sort of things that I've bought that are maybe higher value, you really do want the emails prior to buying. But then that's when, then it's sort of like, well, it's a very specific use case to what you would do. Like the hot tub example. Yeah. You're not gonna buy another hot tub in 10 years. However, you might need the, you know, accessories, the chemicals, for example. We have actually done hot tubs, haven't we? Um, but you're not gonna spend another 20 grand on a hot tub anytime soon.

Richard Hill [00:27:50]:
However, you want to be aware on how to maintain it, care for it, and build the brand loyalty.. So then obviously when they do in 10 years, great. But really it's about making sure they get the most out of that hot tub. And that then maybe, and hopefully, you know, if your team have also done a sort of a good piece of education, they're gonna buy every other month the chemicals that are needed to maintain the hot tub. So yeah, there's always a few different things to think about. So we've talked and covered a lot of ground and I'm really intrigued about specific niches that you work in. And I think it'd be great to share maybe some specific examples of how to increase sales. We touched on automotive, so it'd be good to go back there in a minute as well.

Richard Hill [00:28:32]:
But, you know, outdoor brands, you know, we have a lot of listeners that are outdoor brands selling things for the outdoor enthusiasts. You know, how can those brands implement various things with email and email marketing to increase sales?

Sophie Penny [00:28:45]:
Yes, I'd say it is similar to automotive in the way that people are very, you know, they are brand advocates. It's a lifestyle which is ingrained into what they're purchasing. And I think a big thing with that is obviously content that, you know, fits around that. So, you know, hunting guides, things like that. But I think also seasonality is huge in outdoor. So, you know, it's spring, it's hunting season. What is the list of all the things, all the products, the product guide for spring? You know, what do you need at this month? What do you need for winter? Put it together for them, you know, kind of give it to them on a plate. They don't need to go and look elsewhere at other content, you know, you're sending it to them right into their inbox.

Sophie Penny [00:29:28]:
That's what they want to read, that's their lifestyle, it's what they centre themselves around.

Richard Hill [00:29:32]:
So if you're just sending them really easy digestible content saying, oh, you'll need this kit, X, Y, and Z, brings here, you're thinking of doing this now, you know, we've got the clocks are changing, then another whatever it is, you're probably going to be doing your first trip out to the mountain or whatever it is. Have you thought about—

Sophie Penny [00:29:49]:
and it's almost natural, it's really natural. It's, it's not— you're not just selling, you are telling them what the logical step is that they, that they need to take at this time of year. Yeah. Um, so there is so much you can do with outdoor brands like that, you know. Lots of, you know, what's the, the top 10, top 10 walks this year, the top 10 places to go in the UK for your trips, you know, for you. Yeah, for your camping trips, etc. And just giving people useful content, but at the same time, you know, telling them what they need from you to kind of support and facilitate that.

Richard Hill [00:30:20]:
So automotive then, we touched on it 20 minutes ago. So what sort of things again can automotive brands do to increase sales?

Sophie Penny [00:30:27]:
I think, you know, something that's really useful and is going back to kind of like the automation side of things, but you might regularly need to replace certain parts on your car. You know, every year you might need a service kit, you want a service, springtime, you're getting your cars out. If it's classic car, you're getting it out, you're getting on the road. Battery, for example, battery check. Making sure that you're giving customers that reminder. You know, it's kind of like if it's a— many classics don't have MOTs, but you know, if it's a newer car, you'll be able to find out when your customer's MOT is. They can input that sign up, and then you can say to them, oh, your MOT's due in, you know, X days. You're giving them something useful.

Sophie Penny [00:31:05]:
And then, you know, every year, oh, why not try this service kit? Why not fill up your washer fluid or your oil, your engine oil? You've not done that since January last year. Just being, you're being really useful.

Richard Hill [00:31:17]:
Yeah. You are. So yeah.

Sophie Penny [00:31:18]:
I forgot about that. You're pushing them towards, you know, the products that are gonna help them. Yeah. And I think that's huge.

Richard Hill [00:31:24]:
Yeah. So we've covered outdoor a little, we've covered automotive, but I think not everybody that's got an e-com store is in the sort of sexier, sexier niches. There's these niches that that we love, these big catalogs of widgets, you know, so I try to think of a good example, but, um, you know, I know we have clients that sell little feet and little, little, um, casters and I can't even pronounce the word casters, casters and feet for furniture and things like that. And there's maybe 100 different types of material and 1,000 sizes. So all of a sudden we've got 10,000 widgets, you know, or going back to the, you know, we've got many, many examples, but you've got these products that You know, it's quite difficult maybe to sort of send a real sexy email about the case that's now 1 inch instead of 1.1 inch or whatever. But there's these big, big catalogs. And I think, you know, it's a big part of our business, these sort of big catalogs, big Google feeds, you know, how can we really help these people? What sort of advice would you give to these guys?

Sophie Penny [00:32:27]:
Yeah, I think one of the big things is to not like, you know, blanket brush everyone the same, you know, don't treat every client or treat every brand the same. There isn't a one-size-fits-all. As I said earlier, you know, an incentive that's a discount isn't necessarily going to work for customer— for clients like that, for brands like that, sorry. We, you know, if you're selling industrial supplies, the person buying it is driven by the fact that they, they need that product and they need it now, and that's going to help them to do their job, avoid downtime. So you really need to like play into that and think, right, get into that person's head. Why do people purchase this product? Is it because they're trying to comply with a certain legislation?

Richard Hill [00:33:09]:
Yeah.

Sophie Penny [00:33:09]:
And you need to speak to them on that, you know, make sure that they're aware of any new legislations that's coming out. Make sure that they, again, with the automation, oh, you purchased this a year ago. Actually, you probably want to, you know, if you purchased a spill kit a few months ago, you might need another one by now.

Richard Hill [00:33:26]:
Spill kit. So that's like a spill, if there's a spill in the warehouse. Yeah. There's a good chance somebody else has spilled something else a year later. Yeah, you've got any spill kits left? Because you probably buy a spill kit, I think, because there's gonna, you know, we've got like, it's maybe a health and safety thing. Yeah, but then you've probably used it once or twice and it seems that need is a repeat thing potentially. Or have you sacked that person that keeps spilling things?

Sophie Penny [00:33:50]:
But yeah, absolutely. And also it's just, you know, really speaking to them on what is important to them, what especially with things like the abandonment. Yeah, if they've abandoned something, you know, they're, they're risking downtime if they don't have these products. So it's just telling them that, you know, you know, avoid downtime, you know, get things flowing smoothly. At the end of, like, financial year end ends at the, at the end of March. If they've got leftover budget, that, that's an issue. So, you know, making sure that you're speaking to them about that because that, you know, why not stock up while you've got the budget? Yeah, it's just about how I think you angle things, how you speak to them. Yeah.

Sophie Penny [00:34:26]:
And how you kind of play things differently dependent on—

Richard Hill [00:34:29]:
I never thought that one. Yeah, that is so clever actually. End of financial year, how many brands out there that are looking to buy, or should be, maybe they've got a little bit of budget or they're just deciding, oh, tax bill, maybe we could reduce that a little bit. We'll buy the £1,000 worth of warehouse widgets we need or whatever. Or spill— Brian's still smelling stuff in the warehouse. Um, and then, yeah, and the abandoned cart as well, you know, in B2B, for example, you know, if people are buying, they're busy, you know, they're busy in that organization. That's very relatable to me as an agency owner. You know, if we're buying things off Amazon, for example, or wherever it may be, excuse me, we need this quick.

Richard Hill [00:35:05]:
Oh, forgot. Oh, just get that there. Oh, it's still in the basket. I thought, you know, I thought I checked out, you know, busy, busier environment. So that was a bit more, um, you know, I'm thankful for those reminders. Yeah, well, it's been a blast. Thank you for coming on the show. I like to finish every episode with a book recommendation.

Richard Hill [00:35:21]:
Have a book to recommend to our listeners, Sophie?

Sophie Penny [00:35:23]:
So it's not a book, but I do have a resource that I'd like to share. Um, so there is a lady called Beth, um, who has a newsletter, and it is called Remarkable, um, by Astral, um, and it is brilliant. So it's essentially an email marketing newsletter. She gives some really great case studies, um, She's also got courses, etc., and she talks a lot about deliverability, which is something that's, I think, is really important, really hot topic at the moment in email. And yeah, I'd definitely recommend checking that out.

Richard Hill [00:35:53]:
All right, brilliant. Well, thank you for that. So for those that want to find out more about you, more about what you do at Ecom One, what's the best way to reach out to you?

Sophie Penny [00:36:00]:
So I'm on LinkedIn, um, Sophie Penny, and then if you want to drop me an email, I am sophie@ecomone.com.

Richard Hill [00:36:06]:
Well, thank you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Sophie Penny [00:36:08]:
Thank you for having me.

Richard Hill [00:36:09]:
Thank you.