E217: Sarah Lee & Kiri Leach

Richard [00:00:00]:
Richard here and welcome back to the eCom@One podcast. Today is a proper laugh, but absolutely tactical too. I'm talking with Sarah Lee, head of social and influencer marketing at the Inkey List, creative force behind their TikTok shop and Kiri Leach, who runs Inkey List, D2C and E Commerce ops. We cover everything from chaotic live stream moments to the quiz that drives ltv slick live scripting bundles and how affiliates are becoming a core acquisition channel. This episode is a hands on manual for live shopping success. If you want a real world playbook for live shopping and creator led growth, this one is for you. Now do me a favor, hit the subscribe or follow button. Wherever you are listening to this, you are always the first to know when a new episode drops.

Richard [00:00:49]:
Right, let's head into this fantastic episode. Hi and welcome to the eCom@One podcast. How are we doing?

Kiri Leach [00:00:57]:
Good, thank you for having us.

Richard [00:00:59]:
No problem at all. Right, well I think before we get into it, I think it'd be absolutely must introduce yourselves and tell us how you got into the world of E commerce and all things TikTok.

Sarah Lee [00:01:09]:
So I'm Sarah Lee, I work at the Inkey List and I'd say I've probably got an E commerce adjacent. My background is social and influencer marketing and then as TikTok shops come to the forefront, that's generally how I've got a bit closer to the e commerce world.

Richard [00:01:23]:
Exciting. And yourself, Kiri?

Kiri Leach [00:01:26]:
Yes, I'm at the Inkey List as well, but I started on E commerce probably back when I was about 13 on MySpace back in the day and people would give me their login details to, you know, do some code on their theme and make it all customized. So and then that transpired into Bebo and then yeah, just worked for E commerce brands ever since. Now I work on the Inkey List DTC site and manage all that's overt on there.

Richard [00:01:48]:
Brilliant. So back in the day then on MySpace, that's a bit of a blast from the past.

Kiri Leach [00:01:52]:
That's a long time I came now.

Richard [00:01:54]:
I don't think we've done an episode on MySpace even though we've been doing this a while. But not quite that long. Not quite that long. So tell us all about Inkey List.

Sarah Lee [00:02:01]:
So the Inkey List is a skincare brand. We were founded back in around 2018 by Colette Laxton and Mark Curry who are from a boots background. Yeah, I was lucky enough to meet those guys around the time of Assassin Inkey List to join from really early Days. And we are a skincare brand. We are focused on accessibility and incredible formulations at really great price points, but also breaking down how the products work. So our customers are really clear on how they use them, what they use and when. And our motto is no bs, just better skin. So cutting through a lot of the marketing jargon and all of that just to deliver really effective formulations and helping people navigate what works for them.

Richard [00:02:35]:
I might pinch that. No bs, just great marketing. So probably quite a crowded market, isn't it, skincare? I would say yes.

Sarah Lee [00:02:45]:
It's a really competitive landscape. It's been really interesting, like carving our own path in that over the last few years and really making a name for ourselves just in the UK and the US against that competition. I think as a team and especially for so long now, we're so proud.

Richard [00:03:00]:
Of where we've got to because 2018 is not that long ago, is it really?

Sarah Lee [00:03:04]:
No. And when you look at what has happened in that time period with COVID and all the tariffs and everything, it's been a really interesting landscape to navigate, but happy to say, say we are, yeah, as strong as ever.

Kiri Leach [00:03:14]:
I think Covid actually helped our growth because that was the reason we made a DTC website, wasn't it? To in a very customers during lockdown.

Richard [00:03:21]:
So prior to that, no D2C site?

Kiri Leach [00:03:23]:
No, just in store.

Sarah Lee [00:03:25]:
Yeah, we had a D2C, we had a site but it wasn't for sales, it was purely for education and I think the team managed to turn that around in a very short time. That was terrifying.

Richard [00:03:35]:
So six years then, very crowded market, no website until four or five years ago. Have you been able to sort of differentiate and stand out in the market, would you say?

Kiri Leach [00:03:45]:
I think on site our main selling point was our skin quiz. So that really set us apart from other skincare brands at the time and probably even now. I think most brands do have one, but we were kind of the first to do. It was just Sarah's point, making that education really clear, making that decision process easier. And that is still today one of our most valuable tools for new customers. If we can get you to do the quiz, we know what your lifetime value is going to be with us. And um, and it's still really important, that decision making journey, I think.

Sarah Lee [00:04:09]:
And we had alongside The Quiz a 24,7 human powered skincare service. So we had amazing team called Ask Inky and customers could come and ask their skincare questions and the team would give them really honest advice. So they weren't. Not really KPI'd on sales but the quality of the interactions and you'd find that in certain circumstances we'd actually recommend competitive products because we wanted it to be a really authentic experience for them. If we didn't have the right product, we were happy to say, you know, you can go and find one his brand a price point equivalent to our own. So I think that was. Yeah alongside.

Richard [00:04:37]:
That's a real standout thing, isn't it? Rather than just obviously promoting your own stuff and recommending your own stuff. So quizzes we talk about quite a lot. You know, it's a. Something we really recommend to obviously segment and make sure that user visitor is finding something of value or buying the thing that they really be obviously six, maybe six years ago you introduced, you introduced quizzes. How's that evolved now? Is there any sort of snippets you can give our listeners around? How is there any advanced parts to that quiz you would say that are really like oh, if you're listening right now, I think that's a really good idea.

Kiri Leach [00:05:08]:
100% I think it has. It obviously started off quite simple. It was just like a few step question and you got perhaps one recommended routine. Since then it's evolved into three routines depending on how much you want to spend and how many steps in your routine you want. And then as our formulas have progressed as well, we've introduced super solutions which are kind of extra strong products. So if you tell us you've got a certain concern at some point within the quiz, we might ask you a few more questions about that particular concern to see if you could qualify for the stronger solution or not. And in addition to that is in past couple of years now that we've got like a loyalty program, you kind of get free products and other incentives on top of those advanced routines.

Richard [00:05:48]:
If you saw, if you've gone through the quiz process.

Kiri Leach [00:05:50]:
Yeah.

Richard [00:05:51]:
So you're encouraged to go through the quiz.

Kiri Leach [00:05:53]:
Yeah.

Richard [00:05:53]:
So then get on the loyalty to get the different deals and different discounts and so forth and lifetime value which I'm sure we'll, we'll touch on more. Okay. Yeah. Big fan of quizzes. Absolutely. Especially in, in your, in your niche. So we've got to talk about TikTok shop. We touched on it before we hit record.

Richard [00:06:12]:
I know you've got lots of amazing stories to share but obviously what was sort of the initial motivation, the initial sort of idea behind Getting live with TikTok shop?

Sarah Lee [00:06:23]:
So I think when I started at the Inkey List, so I was here at the start I left for a few years and then came back again and one of my things, my to do list was get the US TikTok shop set up. I hadn't really thought too much about it. We kind of, I think dabbled with it before I started but hadn't really driven it in any capacity. And as I was working to get this US shop set up and the conversation we're having with the account reps in the US and in the UK suddenly it seemed like this is a really, really interesting opportunity in terms of brand awareness as well as the sales and the platform itself. So I think we've went into it unknown about what we were sort of getting ourselves into and is it. It was just through.

Kiri Leach [00:06:56]:
It was so new as well as a platform. We didn't really have any expectations.

Sarah Lee [00:06:59]:
It's been driven by curiosity.

Kiri Leach [00:07:00]:
I was still here but that.

Richard [00:07:02]:
But the. Those guys are sort of saying I should really try because it's been successful for them or more.

Sarah Lee [00:07:07]:
I think it was when we were talking to the US account reps and started realizing the volume of sales that other brands are driving through that channel and then realizing that we are a very equivalent brand to those. And yeah, it felt like it was a really great opportunity for us to be getting there and looking at how we could achieve those same numbers.

Richard [00:07:22]:
Yeah. So it was like really, they're doing that much through doing this. We maybe should have a look and then had a proper look and then obviously did your first live. How did that go?

Sarah Lee [00:07:34]:
Our first lives were. I think our first live was for singles day and we've never gone live before. We did it in the office. It was an all day parties. We had influences in the office and much like you're set up here, we had a meeting room booth which was our live lab. None of us had really. I think we'd done two practice lives beforehand and it was. We made some money which is great because we weren't expecting to sell anything.

Sarah Lee [00:07:54]:
I think we accidentally sold maybe a thousand sunscreens at £1 which we should not have done.

Richard [00:08:00]:
Oh.

Kiri Leach [00:08:00]:
So we let our C O, we.

Sarah Lee [00:08:03]:
Let our CEO on give it away and he let me run the deals at a point where it was my sort of first time. But we had an amazing experience and I think it was suddenly the connection we have with the audience watching in the live and being able to respond to them. It felt like a really interesting place for community and how we grew that there. And then our first big live which was at Winter Wonderland in Hyde park, which was an Amazing experience, but it was definitely riddled with challenges, fun challenges.

Kiri Leach [00:08:28]:
Thanks.

Richard [00:08:29]:
I mean, for those that don't know, Winter Wonderland in the. In the heart of London is probably the biggest, One of the biggest attractions in London around the lead up to what, four or five weeks to Christmas. It's packed with, I would say, hundreds of thousands of people, Literally hundreds of thousands. I've been a couple of times and it's crazy busy. Hundreds of thousands of people is on a night, daily basis. So you had a. You did a live in the middle of that.

Sarah Lee [00:08:51]:
Yes. You were given an igloo and it was tiny and you had half an igloo. Was the front, sorry, front stage facing the camera and the back half where we were all sat on the floor and laptops and we ourselves had made an error with the store. We hadn't realized we'd missed some fulfillment goals. And as a result of that, our store was capped to 50 orders a day. So we've. Well, I've flown in from New York, got straight off the plane, gone to this live, because we've had another event in New York and we're 30 minutes into the live and we've sold through our 50 orders and suddenly the shop shut.

Richard [00:09:18]:
You've got another half a day left.

Sarah Lee [00:09:19]:
I've got like another nine hours. The nine hours. In this video, the team are singing the theme tune to Wicked and Entertaining. They were on the ice skating ring, like, with the live stream going because we just couldn't. And TikTok team were amazing. They were working behind the scenes to get lifted. And I think learning from our side is if they'd had a tiny bit of notice from us that we were aware of the violation, they absolutely could have got it fixed. But I think from our side we'd missed it because again, it was a new channel for us.

Sarah Lee [00:09:43]:
All the eyes and they got it lifted in the last half. Now, I think we did quite well.

Richard [00:09:48]:
You had quite a break then where you were skating or whatever and we'd.

Sarah Lee [00:09:51]:
Kept them interested and these guys were invested in the shop coming back online. They were like, we're ready, we're waiting and we had this. Yeah. So it was an amazing, like, hour. But oh, my goodness, we. The office Christmas tree got lost. I stole it on the way to the live stream and I ended up in the chaos. So I did your Christmas tree.

Richard [00:10:06]:
Authentic piece, isn't it? At the end of the, you know, someone's on and I go, oh, yeah. Oh, we can't buy. Then you're going, oh, sorry, guys. Well, sorry, guys, there's been a bit of a technical glitch. We're waiting for somebody to turn us on. It was, yeah, hang fire for our house. You're literally waiting for. For quite some time.

Richard [00:10:21]:
Then they're just talking, talking, talking, talking.

Sarah Lee [00:10:23]:
I think it was the last 45 minutes before we had to shut up shop. We were able to sell. And then very kindly, the TikTok team and the partners we were working with extended the live for us by about 45 minutes. We kept going for a bit longer, but really great experience. I think it taught us a lot about a being on top of our metrics.

Richard [00:10:40]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:10:40]:
And keeping an eye properly and also just entertaining. So in that situation when it is all going a little bit wrong, the team were incredible. And while we hadn't sold as many products as we hoped, the engagement and the community response to what was happening was incredible. People were loving the singing, dancing.

Richard [00:10:58]:
So I guess you look back at that and obviously that was your first main. Main live and a lot of things went wrong, but you did it, you stepped into it, you did it. And obviously there was success, some success commercial, but a lot of success around the community, the brand.

Sarah Lee [00:11:13]:
But.

Richard [00:11:13]:
But now sort of here, how. Well, how. I guess for the listeners it'd be quite interesting. Intriguing. The sort of size of the lives that you do now.

Sarah Lee [00:11:21]:
Now I'd say we have got much more structured. We've got an amazing agency partner that we work with who we. I think we didn't have the skills internally to run those live streams and I think. And they just on boarded with us that first live. And again, that violation issue wasn't anyone but ours, but now they're a lot slicker. We have an amazing producer who is scripting us every minute, so we know exactly what we're saying when we're saying it. And I think it's a surprise to me because I wasn't expecting to end up hosting them, which is what. What's happened to me front of camera as well as behind it.

Sarah Lee [00:11:50]:
And it's been a really great. The best analogy I can give to it is if you have sold in retail stores and you've done eventing, it is that skill set that is shocking to people and they're through a screen. That is still. Those same skills that I've been fortunate. Thank you. To go and work in Sephora stores in the US and in boot stores in the uk and it's that. What is. Sorry, it's those skills I've been able to translate into the live Shopping experience.

Kiri Leach [00:12:12]:
You're talking straight to the customer, which is where all of our insights come as well. And I think just to put it into perspective, our livestream revenue is now 21% of our shop revenue. So it read as power.

Richard [00:12:22]:
Yeah.

Kiri Leach [00:12:23]:
Our growth.

Richard [00:12:24]:
So for those that are listening, that are thinking about maybe doing their first live stream, what would you say to them?

Kiri Leach [00:12:28]:
Just do it.

Sarah Lee [00:12:29]:
Just do it. Look at how we started to where we are now. You it even I look back and cringe. I was on my own in the office on Black Friday last year. I. It was awful. Fully transparent. I was not great.

Sarah Lee [00:12:41]:
But if we hadn't started then, we wouldn't be where we are now. And it can feel so daunting and it's not my skill set, I promise you, before this, but it's absolutely worth it. And I think what you're going to build with your audience from doing it is, is powerful.

Richard [00:12:55]:
I really want to do one.

Sarah Lee [00:12:57]:
I really want to do podcast. Why don't you come and do a live stream with us?

Richard [00:13:00]:
I'll do it 100%. And you need to learn about the products a little bit. But I would love to do one. I would love to do one.

Kiri Leach [00:13:06]:
Yeah.

Richard [00:13:06]:
It's so interesting. I think like you said about, you know, people that have worked in store, dealt with CL customers and just discussed, you know, the products. I think that. But then you maybe put a camera in front of people and they get, oh, I can't do that. But the. They're the perfect people to do that, aren't they?

Sarah Lee [00:13:20]:
We have a really great founding team in Colette Laxton and Mark Curry. So Colette quite often hosts her lives and she's amazing at it. Like she's a true talent. She's want to do it.

Richard [00:13:28]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:13:29]:
And it's really great with her engaging with those customers in that way and giving them access to her. She started her own TikTok channel. And again, watching those same people come across and over. It's just really nice linking up all these separate things and being able to engage them in a real personable way.

Richard [00:13:43]:
Yeah, yeah. It really, really find it really intriguing that you can literally just hit record and talk about your product. And obviously, if you work at that business or it's your business, you're obviously very passionate about the product and you can do hours and hours and hours and hours. But it must get a little bit tricky at times. Maybe when you're two, three hours in, you've said the same thing maybe 10 times. What, what advice would you give to the guys on that, I think.

Sarah Lee [00:14:05]:
So for us, you have to remember that your audience is constantly new. So the actual watch rate on a TikTok shop is not that long. So while you're looking at that number thinking, oh, there's a 200 people watching this right now.

Richard [00:14:15]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:14:15]:
In fact, It's a different 200 people every two minutes or so. So from that side, just. You're not repeating yourself.

Richard [00:14:22]:
Then you, the original people have maybe gone new. 200. Just 200, 200, 200. Or whatever your number is. Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:14:28]:
Yes. It's generally quite a fresh audience and I'd also say, I mean, I think to be on TikTok shop with your brand, you will love what you're selling. I really back our products and I can go on that live and sell them with confidence because I know that they work. And if you get them into the right hands and viewing it as, again, we've got quite a large product portfol, like we've got Quite a few SKUs.

Richard [00:14:48]:
Do you generally talk about a lot of the SKUs or is it like this, this. This lab is about this particular set or this particular range or. It's interesting, just have a change. Right, we're going to do it.

Sarah Lee [00:14:58]:
Can.

Kiri Leach [00:14:59]:
It depends who's joining the live, doesn't it?

Sarah Lee [00:15:01]:
Yeah, we go in with quite a tight plan of what we're going after. The bundles, the team request specific bundles to be built. But as you're live and you have the audience data, our producer will be sat there saying, well, actually a lot of the audience at this age bracket, they may be more interesting. This. Can we pivot?

Richard [00:15:14]:
And that's changing as you. As you go. That is so amazing, isn't it? So as you might be getting it in your ear or on the board saying, right, the average age at the moment is 35.

Sarah Lee [00:15:24]:
Actually, it's these products, you know, this.

Richard [00:15:26]:
Is the range for that other people.

Kiri Leach [00:15:28]:
Mention, like, tell us about this or I love this product. It just switches, isn't it? And then we'll maybe put that on a flash sale for that person, sell five of them and it's really reactive.

Sarah Lee [00:15:36]:
I think that's what's really enjoyable about it is getting those insights in. In a very live fashion of actually, we came to talk about this, but my goodness, you want to hear about this? Fine, let's go for it. We get in trouble because we read the comments too much in the live streams. They're like, focus on the same.

Richard [00:15:49]:
So there's quite a lot going on. Then you've Obviously been. You've started off selling XYZ on the live and then you've got some of the team saying, oh, the. The audience has changed to this and then the comments might be saying this and you've got to sort of navigate and watch quite a lot of things that are going on at the same. You've got. At the same time you've then got to articulate the brand in the right way and not get flustered. But if you do get flustered, I guess it's not the end of the world. You just carry on.

Sarah Lee [00:16:14]:
Oh, we have had funny boards have fallen down, things have tripped around us. We've opened boxes and found the wrong product. Like there's been so many things. I think it is just keeping your calm because people are sympathetic and they're with you. They're not. They're not judging you. And I think that's probably hard to.

Richard [00:16:27]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:16:27]:
Disassociate from when you're first going live. And then again we have got Colette who is so good at articulating the brand story and I think using that as a mechanic to sell. Obviously.

Richard [00:16:37]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:16:37]:
But getting that story across and the why of the products and some of the best moments we've had in the live streams where she's talking through her. Her personal experiences with the products, why we've developed them.

Richard [00:16:45]:
So that's really at the heart of most of the lives is the story, the history, the where the products have come from.

Sarah Lee [00:16:52]:
Yes. Don't get. You can't get too carried into it and. And it has to be fun and entertaining and actually a lot of that is switching on bundles and the deals. But as you're selling that bundle in your very limited slot, getting in that. That story, in that piece. This is my wedding routine. So let got married this year.

Sarah Lee [00:17:07]:
We put her skincare routine into a bundle.

Richard [00:17:09]:
She's talking about a wedding and yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:17:11]:
She went foundation free because of the exosome serum that we have. Like those are the narratives that connect personally and also convert.

Kiri Leach [00:17:17]:
I think it's right. It is an entertainment platforms. People aren't expecting a polished scripted show. They are. There's a lot of comedic values. I think Colette keeps it really real and they love her for it. So it works.

Richard [00:17:28]:
I love it, I love it, I love it. So let's change direction a little bit. So TikTok shop, you know, in terms of sitting within a marketing team, I think how do you sort of do that? And I think there's a lot of people are not sure who should really look after that in terms of, you know, is it, is it a social side of things? Is it more on the E comm side? You know and then there's the revenue piece, you know, how did you, you know, obviously it sounds like the first one was just right, let's just do this thing and loads of thought put into that bit. But now it's obviously more of a big production, a lot more resource around it.

Sarah Lee [00:18:01]:
Now what I'd say from my experiences is that in just being events and meeting people is a lot of the time it does end up with the social team. Now I am really fortunate at Inkey because I am not a commercial girl. It's not my background. I've not. The things Kiri could do I cannot do. But I have an amazing team in key that have helped me grow in the areas that I need to. We've got a brand new CRO officer, our head of online. Kiri is invaluable to me on a daily basis.

Sarah Lee [00:18:24]:
So I think. And there are skills that I have within the shop platform that are new to you and I think it's one more. We've had to work together more than I think on any other project I could think of hand in hand because it does end up sitting with Social quite often but it's probably not the most natural home because of. I love it for its brand awareness metrics making it run as a proper E commerce channel. I need Kiri's expertise.

Kiri Leach [00:18:45]:
It is completely 5050 and we're both from that 24 hour world where nothing slows down, everything's always changing on both E comm and social so I think we are just.

Sarah Lee [00:18:53]:
It's a good fit.

Richard [00:18:54]:
Yeah, yeah. So would you.

Sarah Lee [00:18:56]:
Would.

Richard [00:18:56]:
Am I right in thinking then you maybe put the packages together on the commercial side and you, you'll be like okay. Or there might be then a slight tweak or change and then, then as the live is going to. You've started there but as we said five minutes ago then we know that we've got it then very quickly so you know, you've already been discussed. Well if we move to this, we'll package this with this and then if we sell out of that we'll go to this, that type of thing and obviously you know, in terms of margin, profitability, stock availability, all the things that make sure the stuff goes out the door profitably are also ticked off. It's quite a juggle of that, isn't it?

Kiri Leach [00:19:32]:
A lot of moving parts I think in both the lives and just the short as usual, like there's. You're good at like noting trends, being like we should have this bundle or these products bundled together and then I can be like yep, you can sell it at that price or. And with that comes a stock forecasting. So you know, we need to make sure that we've actually got the stock to sell it if you want to sell it.

Sarah Lee [00:19:50]:
And if you have a like a spike where something's doing particularly well, they can come out of nowhere and do catch you out.

Kiri Leach [00:19:56]:
And it's all about keeping the channel profitable. So it's. Yeah. Not mega discounts. Keep an eye on our margins and. But also sticking with the trends, not.

Richard [00:20:02]:
Selling what is it for a pound like you did on the first one.

Kiri Leach [00:20:05]:
SPS for a pound.

Sarah Lee [00:20:06]:
No SPS for a pound. But I think even when you are discounting like in the lives you probably discount slightly heavier than in the channel and why. But there's a different objective perhaps the lives and getting sales behind a bundle, testing it out, see how it works. Driving a limited volume at a certain price for a short period of time to give you a spike to help the algorithm give you traffic into your live. And again we have an amazing agency who support us on this. Like I would say one of my top tips is if you are new to this, we've found when we started out very competitive, you know, partners that are able to help us drive this because it wasn't our expertise in some of these areas.

Richard [00:20:39]:
We know the guys, very good guys, give them a shout out.

Sarah Lee [00:20:43]:
We work with unsociable who are sports in this. Yeah, we wouldn't be here without their expertise. And again the team at Tick Tock as well, they are there to help you. So the minute any resources, opportunities or their learning hubs on their platform, please take advantage because our, our account wrote book of her shower. Juliana has also helped get us here because she's been so good at supporting us through the things we didn't understand.

Richard [00:21:05]:
Yeah, I can sort of hear to that. You know we've got quite a few clients that do similar and the team at Tick Tock, obviously we ran an event. You guys were our guests and speakers at our event a few months ago. Brilliant team. Get that support from the people that know what they're doing and get that first live, live and then let's see where, where, where it can go. Like you guys. So now you might be looking for an SEO boost, a down to earth digital PR campaign to share your story or maybe just some straightforward technical Help to amp up your performance. Now that's where Ecom now comes in.

Richard [00:21:36]:
A partner that's all about making things easier for your online store. Our services cover everything from creating professional content for your e commerce categories to refining your product product descriptions. Now, whether you're just starting out or have been in it for a while, we're here to deliver real impactful results that add to your bottom line without unnecessary commitments. You can order one off or multiple projects with a quick turnaround. Simply choose what you need. We've done a good life, you know, we've sold a lot of stuff and it's hit certain KPIs or the how do you then really report on the success of life? You know, you've done, you've done that big live, you know, you've done your nine hours, you've. You're buzzing or you're knackered, one of the two, probably a bit of both. And then you come out of it and then you're looking at how successful that was.

Richard [00:22:23]:
What are some of the shared KPIs across the sort of social e comm management team that you're looking to achieve?

Kiri Leach [00:22:29]:
I think the lives are quite siloed in the sense that we do measure revenue on those ones, don't we, in terms of like bestsellers, how much the live made in general, because there's such a big team involved and there's travel involved, the studio hire involved. But I think more of a Wider piece on TikTok shop. The lives and the normal shop is sort of that brand awareness piece as well. Because although we want to be profitable, that doesn't necessarily mean just on the TikTok shop channel because that is an acquisition channel really. Like 80% of our customers are brand new.

Richard [00:23:00]:
Yeah.

Kiri Leach [00:23:01]:
And so it's figuring out, okay, they discover us through TikTok, they shop by, you know, us through TikTok, but then do they come back on DTC or do they come back in stores? So it's really a huge piece, isn't it? You pleasure EMV and other so we.

Sarah Lee [00:23:16]:
Love our live streams. They're really fun. I think what I'd probably say the heartbeat of our engine is the affiliate program that we're looking at and getting those content creators on board. Watching them take our products and tell stories that we hadn't conceived yet within the marketing team and do really well with them has been incredible for us. So as much we love the live streams, we want them to make money for the business, obviously. But there are Those wider community KPIs and I think that's what you have to balance your TikTok shop is what it's driving as a sales channel in itself and how it's driving your brand awareness wider than Tick Tock Shop. And I think for us those need to go hand in hand and feel like both things are being achieved.

Richard [00:23:52]:
So talk to me more about the. So we're pushing the brand out there, obviously we're selling X amount. That's great. But what we're saying is it's much more than that. You know, we're getting, we're getting the brand out into a lot of new people and that is that 80% that we're trying to achieve or plus of new business. But then we're trying to attract affiliates with the lives. Is that.

Sarah Lee [00:24:11]:
No. So this sort of TikTok shop breaks it down into like three sections. Sales for your shop cabin shop page, sales for your live streams and sales through your affiliates.

Richard [00:24:21]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:24:21]:
So affiliates, they have an affiliate hub within the platform so you can put your products on there on open commission rates so people can come in and self apply. You can look at their stats and metrics and decide who from that list you want to work with. You can also target plans, you can outreach with specific commission rates to affiliates that you've perhaps chosen versus self self serve and come to you. And then.

Richard [00:24:42]:
So they typically get better rates potentially or different rates.

Sarah Lee [00:24:46]:
Yes, different deals. It might be almost campaigns as well. So if we're looking to promote particular sku we might test doing a different commission rate but also be played with and from there they'll get their Product sent from ID2C so it's quite a quick and efficient way of sending out products for us. I used to look after influencer and obviously gifting is amazing and very valuable to the brand but it can be in terms of getting custom boxes designed and the process, it's a bit more labor intensive. Whereas here I think because we're both working on a business relationship and they've got a job to do. That product, it does come from our D2C warehouse. I mean a lot. Sorry.

Sarah Lee [00:25:19]:
And then we. They'll get the product out, they'll make content from that. They're KPI'd within the TikTok platform on whether or not they produce the content. So they get a score and that impacts their score. So if you send a product and they don't, you can also do not try before you buy but they will purchase a product and if they make a sale they'll get the Refund back versus us outline the cost up front.

Richard [00:25:41]:
So they buy it up front with the sell one they get.

Sarah Lee [00:25:44]:
I've not played around with that bit too much, so I'm not an expert here, but that is what the mechanics.

Richard [00:25:47]:
That's new to me. Yeah, that's. Yeah. So affiliates drive quite a revenue piece then and.

Sarah Lee [00:25:53]:
And a brand awareness piece for us I think it's. For us it's the content they're creating and in mass and at scale is really exciting and I think as we're growing this channel because it's new one for us, seeing where that can take us next year, I think it's really exciting.

Richard [00:26:04]:
So do you then from that. Okay, that's going well. You've got X amount of affiliates and creators creating and then you see someone doing really, really well. It's probably the top 5% or whatever number we want to pick. Do you then reach out to them maybe and sort of do more of a bespoke deal with them? Or maybe they reach out to you because they can see they're doing really well. Is there more of a.

Sarah Lee [00:26:28]:
It's quite a lot of it's managed within the platform.

Kiri Leach [00:26:30]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:26:30]:
There are quite a few affiliate events that Tick Tock put on. I think growing our affiliate community across next year. I think we have a WhatsApp group currently with the top creators. There's competitions that we run and prize mechanics. So and again we work with an agency partners to run that just from a resource perspective from our side. And so yes there is a lot of ways to engage and retain and again Tick Tock do have eventing that you can take part in. We went to one in September and met a lot of some really great affiliates in the uk and what I found really interesting about the affiliate community is whereas with sometimes with the influence community you can find it is quite centralized to key cities. So Manchester, London, the affiliate community feel like they're more diverse regionally.

Sarah Lee [00:27:07]:
So from a brand perspective it can be harder to get them all into a room. So when you're. What I'm trying to make is leverage the events that TikTok are facilitating because.

Richard [00:27:15]:
It is going to ask you about.

Sarah Lee [00:27:16]:
That pulls them all together in a way that perhaps you haven't got the same incentivization for if it's just you there for them to travel.

Richard [00:27:21]:
So events. I mean I think we, we talk about events probably on every third episode and I think going to events in. In your space, you know, in. In your E commerce store space, but going to events that maybe TikTok are running to attract affiliates or going to affiliate events for maybe third party affiliates obviously meeting people in the space. Any tips on sort of going to those events? I think a lot of people are you know, quite nervous about going to events on their own maybe as a smaller merchant or the first time liver or you know going to these events. What's a sort of a strategy of maybe getting a bit that event the most out going to an event where they use affiliates and maybe TikTok are running these events.

Sarah Lee [00:27:58]:
I think it's just being really open to just, just. I mean I'd never been to an affiliate event before. I think November last year we went to the first one up in Manchester. We had a really amazing time just with my team with us and I think it was just meeting people where they're at. So don't come in with a sales pitch and you're not, you're not at a conference. These are real human beings.

Richard [00:28:18]:
Yeah. Proper conversation rather than this is some.

Sarah Lee [00:28:21]:
Of their job, their full time job is being an affiliate on their commission rates. So I think it's just engaging with them in that manner and as people to people and I think yeah some affiliates we've worked with, we've. We surprised one at a tick tock event with a pair of AirPod Maxes because she's performed so well for us.

Richard [00:28:35]:
Oh it's a gift.

Sarah Lee [00:28:36]:
Yeah. And she was the first affiliate who'd ever we'd really seen traction with and many more have gone on since then and we looked forward to rewarding all of them but we just wanted to say thank you because what she did for us was kind of helpful. Make the us and myself go oh, there's something in this. Wow, this is incredible. And it so just. They're just lovely people. Sorry.

Kiri Leach [00:28:52]:
That's why you're all there for the same reason. Like even if you don't know the person, you're there by yourself. You've got something in common which is why you're there.

Sarah Lee [00:28:59]:
So yeah, their interest is in your product in the sense that they want to be able to go and sell it. So as much as I'm saying it's not a sales pitch. Give them the tools they need and why should they be interested in your product? What is it about your product that they can go on to a tick tock? What are the hooks that you think could be really work help? I think try and capture their imaginations. It's not this is my product. It is $2024.99. It does X, Y and Z. But oh my God, this is great for X given stories.

Richard [00:29:20]:
Going back to the story of your founder, I think when she's talking about the stories of, yeah, I'll use this for the wedding. It was brilliant because I had a problem with it and we use this to do the. Whatever it is. Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:29:30]:
Those are the moments, I think, that capture attention. I think that's what I'd be looking to give them is excitement about why they could go and sell your product for you.

Richard [00:29:37]:
Yeah. So go to events, guys, please.

Sarah Lee [00:29:39]:
Go to events. Go, go.

Richard [00:29:41]:
So Tick Tock Run. Are they sort of invite only or can you get on our list? Is there any sort of insights on how to get invited to events?

Sarah Lee [00:29:48]:
That's a really good question. We've got a great account rep who frequently invites us. But I think be proactive with your reps. Reach out and ask. And I think we've always asked questions and, and popped up and gone, oh, can we do this? Can we come to this?

Richard [00:30:00]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:30:00]:
And that I'd say is just be proactive in asking. And they are the most supportive team. Like they want you to do well and they're here for you and they want to help you do well. And if you show up and you show your willing, consistent, they will do it, move heaven and earth if they can to help you achieve those goals.

Richard [00:30:16]:
And if you've not got a rep, guys, I would say if you're still with us, I'm gonna, we're gonna reward you with a reach out to us and we'll see if we can point in the right direction at Econ1 in terms of the team at Tick Tock and hopefully we might better get you on a list to go to your first event or different events. Is there other events as well that sort of non. Tick Tock.

Sarah Lee [00:30:33]:
This is where I find out that I'm not invited to look.

Richard [00:30:34]:
Well, you're maybe not allowed to tell where. Well, there is, but yeah, we've been.

Sarah Lee [00:30:39]:
I think we've been to a couple of affiliate events at the HQ in London which were really exciting for us. Again, these are the first time we've done these events with TikTok. Yeah. And we've taken a selection of product we listened to. Really interesting. We did a speech to them from the stage and then we socialized afterwards with the breakfast and got to actually speak to the affiliates and tell them why we're excited about our products and why we think that they should be too. From a perspective, being able to go and tell those stories about them out there.

Richard [00:31:00]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:31:01]:
And I think some of those relationships we've kept and we can see them coming through in our performance. A really great event with TikTok in September where we had loads of beauty brands and and press that came in and getting the chance to like exhibit chat to the if it's also find out how it works for that like are they happy with our systems and our rates because again it's a very platform based interactions like we're not actually DMing them like we would with influencers where we have a more personalized communication stream. This is very. Through a system. So I think that chance to find out what would you like to see us do? How is it working for you? Is really great.

Richard [00:31:33]:
Nice opportunity, isn't it? Like you say, because normally they're just going on a platform, just a list of data names but not that relationship. So you get the opportunity to build a relationship stone you and you know what? She was really cool. Let's get her on the podcast.

Sarah Lee [00:31:46]:
All the live streams, you know, affiliate creators can run live streams for you find if you find someone that that event you think's really got you and really got the products like set them free.

Richard [00:31:56]:
Like yeah, yeah. Right. Change of direction. Are you ready?

Sarah Lee [00:32:01]:
Yes.

Richard [00:32:02]:
No idea what we're gonna do. I'm just gonna. But it's alive. I've just got to make it up as I go.

Sarah Lee [00:32:07]:
Welcome to my loves.

Richard [00:32:09]:
So I want to just wind back to sort of half an hour ago we talked about sort of the different things that you sell on lives, you know and you. You alluded to a few different, you know, areas around bundle single sku. How do you figure out what to sell to remain profitable? And it's the sort of some. No doubt you've done quite a lot now. So what's the strategy now around what to sell?

Kiri Leach [00:32:30]:
Yeah strategy is to keep all of our as long as all of our best sellers are on TikTok shop that's our first point. And then also because we know it's an acquisition channel if they've come through one of our best sellers it's gone viral. Making sure there's a bundle that exists with that product and other products that we want them to buy into which we know on D2C a good retention skew. So it's all about closing that loop between all of our channels because once you buy on TikTok shop we don't necessarily know yet if you do come back and buy elsewhere. So it's not like we can give you like an abandoned cart flow or, you know, loyalty emails or anything because we can't do that on TikTok shop. So yeah, bundling is still a work in progress, but I think it's making sure the right products show to the right people with the right educational content at the same time. Because Again, on, on TikTok, it's like you have such a short attention span, they just want to buy it really quickly. So making sure that all of what they need to know is on there because they're not going to read a description like they would on D2C.

Kiri Leach [00:33:26]:
So it's.

Richard [00:33:28]:
Yeah, yeah.

Kiri Leach [00:33:28]:
Different style of shopping.

Richard [00:33:30]:
It's really intriguing, isn't it? Because you've got. I think you've got that element of where I'm just going to buy this single thing form smaller amount, then you've got this bundle of products which is no doubt four or five times the amount. So that's quite a considered purchase potentially. But then what is in that bundle for you guys commercially? There's things in there that ideally you. They come back and buy more of or they need to buy more of because it's a part of something that you would. I don't put too much skin care on my face, as you can probably tell, but we need to fix.

Sarah Lee [00:33:58]:
Yeah, we need to fix that.

Richard [00:34:00]:
We'll do it on the live.

Sarah Lee [00:34:01]:
Okay, yeah. Give you a light routine with us.

Richard [00:34:03]:
But obviously you've got the type of products you sell. There's quite a lot of. The lifetime value is a huge, huge part, isn't it?

Kiri Leach [00:34:09]:
100. Yeah. And those bundles that we do build, we try to make a full routine out of so that if you, you know, run out of wine, you need to come back to us again because really your start to end routine should be in one little.

Richard [00:34:20]:
So, yeah, so they bought something on TikTok, on TikTok Live, you know, maybe one or five things. They've got their order. So what do you do then to get them across? What sort of things are you doing to get them across to the, to the store to get them to become more loyal buyers and buy again and again.

Kiri Leach [00:34:40]:
I think that's the bit we're still trying to work out really, isn't it? We don't even know if the TikTok shop customer is the DTC customer or.

Sarah Lee [00:34:47]:
If they're actually buying in retail.

Kiri Leach [00:34:49]:
Yeah.

Sarah Lee [00:34:49]:
There's a question for us around affiliate content and what is that halo effect into stores? And I think what's really exciting for us is with some of the live streams. We're testing out our insiders community that the loyalty program we've built up. How can we get our TikTok shop customers to want to engage in our loyalty program? So our link in our bio on our UK TikTok channel in a minute is to our loyalty program and we've tested out live in the last month we were driving the customers to hey, these prices are great. These great prices all the time. Be an Inkey insider, you'll get first access to X, Y and Z. So I think we're still building it together and testing what works but I think that's really exciting for both of us is how do we link these communities up.

Kiri Leach [00:35:25]:
The most profitable channel for us is D2C. So ideally we want you to come back and to shop on there which is why we have the launch program with loads of incentives. But yeah, it's getting them from one channel to the next, balancing it all.

Richard [00:35:36]:
Yeah, the trick, isn't it? It's gone so quick. We're almost at the end. I think we'll just finish with a couple of questions that I think if people are listening now and they're sort of really thinking about squeezing and scaling more out of their TikTok shop, what's maybe one or two bits of advice from both of you that you would give to somebody who's with us now listening going great, but I'm doing okay on TikTok Shop. I'm doing a bit of bundling and I get it that I've got to bundle this and that because I'm going to get, you know, the lifetime value ideally. But what's maybe one other little nugget or two from you each?

Kiri Leach [00:36:14]:
I would say just the time and consistency because I think it was quite hard for us to find the time. Initially it was like a little side hustle for us alongside our full time jobs. But now we've both kind of moved into this being a key focus for us and that's where we've seen the growth because it's not a channel that can just run in the background without you putting work into it. So it's not possible for everyone. But if you.

Richard [00:36:34]:
Yeah, get it going. Yeah, get it going and then consistency, schedule perhaps.

Sarah Lee [00:36:42]:
I think for me it's just get it set up right. So we've done this as an experiment and there's been some logistical and operational challenges that because of the way we set this up and one of our core business tenants is to be fast. Right. And to move quick. So we're not opposed to how we've done it, but if you can just make sure you're aware of how you're connecting to the warehouse and your longer term and keep an eye on what it looks like when you have scaled it up dramatically, because suddenly small problems are big problems. So if you watch it earlier, you can catch them earlier and fix it before it's at scale. And I think that's probably been really interesting for us, is we've grown really fast and it's been an incredible journey, and there's been some bumps that probably, if we spent five minutes earlier here, could have been avoided. And they've been really fun to solve for challenges, but perhaps with slightly less urgency if we noticed them and a.

Richard [00:37:28]:
Little bit earlier, I think that's the game we're in. Isn't it, though? Isn't it as well? It's like you want to be mega organized, but the same respect. It's a balance, isn't it? Because if you wait to be mega organized, you never do the thing. So it is like, yeah, it resonates because I like to think I'm uber organized, but same respect. I'll walk in here and go, right, we're launching a podcast next week. That was five years ago and look at you now. And then we got all this stuff, but we didn't back then. We had a microphone.

Richard [00:37:52]:
It was just like, bit wonky. And you've just worked a little bit.

Sarah Lee [00:37:55]:
Just got to go.

Richard [00:37:56]:
Yeah, just gotta do it. Just gotta get it done to get it done, guys. Well, thank you so much. The prayer of you, Sarah Kiri, for coming on the show. I like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a book each to recommend to our listeners, Sarah?

Sarah Lee [00:38:08]:
I love it's called Bad Blood. It's by John Carreyrou and he was a journalist for the Wall Street Journal. It's all about the Theranos Elizabeth Holmes scandal with the blood testing company in America. And I. I just find these stories fascinating about how these corporate failures can happen at mass scale. You know, look at their board. If you haven't read it and you don't know it, please read it because it is such a wild journey.

Richard [00:38:30]:
Yeah, I know the story. I know there's a. There's a series about it as well, which I was auto.

Sarah Lee [00:38:35]:
I can't remember her name now. Yeah, Amanda Seafill is. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, that's the Dropout. But yeah, before the Dropout, Bad Blood.

Richard [00:38:41]:
Oh, is it?

Sarah Lee [00:38:42]:
Yeah, the Dropout's also a podcast. I Thranos like my Roman Empire. So, yeah, before you get into any deeper media, you start with Bad Blood by John Carreyrou. Then we're gonna go into the Dropout podcast, then the Dropout TV series with Amanda Seyfield.

Richard [00:38:55]:
I think we should recommend one thing, but it's okay.

Sarah Lee [00:38:57]:
I've given you a whole program, so you have to speed them throughout.

Richard [00:39:00]:
I've got a busy weekend.

Kiri Leach [00:39:02]:
In theory, my slightly less corporate, but mine is a lady's tour around Mont Rosa, which is a book that was written in the 1800s. I like hiking and I like the outdoors. And this was a book written by a lady who went to travel one of the tallest mountains in the Swiss Alps when women weren't really allowed to do that. So it's a really interesting read and very empowering.

Richard [00:39:25]:
Sounds very special. Very nice. Yeah, we'll link that up in the in the show notes. Well, thank you for coming on the show. For those that want to find out more about yourselves and more about Inky, what's the best way to do that?

Sarah Lee [00:39:36]:
I mean, I need to update my LinkedIn, because if you look at it now, I don't currently work at the Inkey list, but I promise you I do. It's not a giant fraud, but if you can. Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. It's Sarah Lee. I will have updated it by the time this podcast comes out.

Kiri Leach [00:39:48]:
Yeah, and mine's kiri Leach on LinkedIn as well.

Richard [00:39:51]:
And for those that want to find out more about the products and more about Inky's product range, what's the best way to do that?

Sarah Lee [00:39:56]:
Well, I'm going to say come watch a live stream, but that way, DTC live stream.

Kiri Leach [00:40:00]:
DTC thinkless.com.

Richard [00:40:02]:
Right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Kiri Leach [00:40:04]:
Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Richard [00:40:05]:
Thank you. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day and I'll see you on the next one.