E211: Nick Altimore

Richard Hill [00:00:00]:
Foreign. Hi there, I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 211. Now we're back with our season, talking about one of the most powerful yet overlooked growth strategies in e commerce, link building. Now, to break it all down, we're joined by Nick Ultimore, a seasoned link building expert who has helped countless brands boost their rankings, drive organic traffic, and build authority in very, very, very competitive niches. We'll dive into the strategies that actually work. How to secure high quality links at scale, which is very important, and why most e commerce brands are missing out on massive SEO opportunities. If you want to dominate search engine results and grow your store's organic presence, this is the episode for you. Let's get into it.

Richard Hill [00:00:45]:
We cover unexpected, unconventional link building tactics that actually work. Nick steps us through real world case studies and how a brand transformed its SEO with strategic link building and predictions for the future. What's next for link building and how can you stay ahead? And of course, so much more in this one. If you enjoy this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, you are always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hi, Nick. Welcome to the Ecom at One podcast.

Richard Hill [00:01:19]:
How are you doing?

Nick Altimore [00:01:20]:
Hello. Hello. I'm doing great. You know, winter time has finally gotten the heck out of here and it is sunny and beautiful outside. So I'm happy again because I hibernate. Hibernate in the winter. It's. It's horrible.

Nick Altimore [00:01:36]:
As soon as the first days of summer come out, I'm happy.

Richard Hill [00:01:38]:
It's beautiful, isn't it? I think it's the same here. Obviously, we're in the uk, you're in the US and where are you exactly in the us Texas.

Nick Altimore [00:01:45]:
No, just outside of Austin, Texas, the capital.

Richard Hill [00:01:48]:
So I think we're both experiencing this shift in season this last few days, this last week, which is fabulous, isn't it?

Nick Altimore [00:01:54]:
Oh, gosh, yeah. Yeah. My mood elevates immediately as soon as this happens. I could handle the gray days, you know, if I had to live somewhere like that, I don't think I can handle it. I'd have to leave.

Richard Hill [00:02:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's get into it. So, Nick, I met about two and a half years ago at a conference literally. Not in. Not in. Not in Texas, not in the UK but in Saigon of all places, which is literally the other side of the world for both of us, I think, almost. But my first conference.

Richard Hill [00:02:27]:
Say again?

Nick Altimore [00:02:28]:
My first conference, I might add. Yeah. So, yeah. Met one of my best friends over there, Richard.

Richard Hill [00:02:36]:
Me.

Nick Altimore [00:02:37]:
Get out of here, dude. You're one of the people I look forward to seeing every year. You know, we go antiquing every year. Richard and I have bonded pretty hard. There's another one in our group, Giannis, that, you know, we.

Richard Hill [00:02:49]:
Yeah, no, so we've, we've become very close friends. Haven't we ever last? It seems like we've known each other for a long time, but obviously it's, you know, a couple of years plus. But I said to Nick, I'm going to get you on the podcast. And here we are. We've finally managed to sync the diaries up and we're going to do a podcast all around, link building, you know, and building that authority with links. But before we get into the nitty gritty, I thought it'd be great for you to introduce yourself, Nick, and how you got into the world of link building and E commerce.

Nick Altimore [00:03:14]:
Sure. So I'm Nick Altimore. You know, most people know me as the Director over at Sirlinksalot co. We provide backlinks and backlink related products for SEOs worldwide. Currently servicing around like a thousand clients per month or so. And we've been growing steadily over the last few years. I got my start in SEO haphazardly maybe close to 12 years ago, working for a VC backed company that was very sales driven. I was just on the sales floor and that's kind of where I started learning about SEO and what it was.

Nick Altimore [00:03:54]:
And then I met my first business partner. We started learning through OMG machines, if you're familiar with them at the time. And then that's kind of where I started learning. What got me into backlinking was I was not a tech guy. Real Neanderthal of a human being, if I'm being real. You know, bartending and fighting mma, stuff like that. Not a tech guy, really bad with computers. But once I learned about procuring domains specifically because I learned about PBNs and how to build one, then if you noticed, and you know me, I collect antiques of all kinds, well, then that clicked for me and resonated because I love collecting domains.

Nick Altimore [00:04:36]:
Hunting for that was like mining for gold or going looking for items, etc. Right. And so that became the first thing that really grabbed my attention. I started making really good money off flipping domains or using them as a. As a pbn. You know, at the time PBN was the hot topic. We don't sell all that many PBNs anymore. So we modified, you know, how we build the PBN now to make it more accessible or more interesting to people that want to use those techniques.

Nick Altimore [00:05:04]:
But at the time, you know, that was kind of what got me in. So from there I started learning about different recipes as far as backlinks and using them and what kind of, you know, benefits they provided. And as I added them to the toolkit, I started selling them on. At the time it was Freedom Links and then it morphed links a lot. And now, you know, after getting the power hub, it branched out into agency, finally started a SaaS company which, you know, I think is like a rite of passage in this industry. And then of course I did E commerce as well, which we'll get into. But yeah, we'll, we'll talk about that.

Richard Hill [00:05:49]:
Because I've got quite a, quite a, quite an experience there working in sort of all different sides of the, of the industry. But ultimately, you know, 12 plus years of experience seeing it, seeing things change things, seeing things come and go. Obviously a lot of consistent things, but ultimately different strategies, testing different things and now ultimately servicing a thousand plus clients in the, in the link building industry from, you know, small businesses all the way through to agencies to big corporates, you know, and we've talked about a few things like that over, over the, over the sort of conversations we've had. But I think to kick things off then, Nick, I think it'd be good for you to. There's a lot we could cover in link building, but I think in terms of breaking down, I'll try and simplify things as much as we can on the podcast, you know, breaking down your process for sort of acquiring links, you know, step us through what an effective campaign looks like from start to finish with a, you know, let's pick a, you know, an E commerce store that's selling, you know, you pick a product, I don't mind, you could pick a, you know, product, a store selling watches. Maybe we're both big, we've done some watch conversation over the years. But you're an E commerce store doing a few million quid selling watches. What is the link process for that?

Nick Altimore [00:07:05]:
So link building, you know, and over on SIR links a lot, YouTube or, you know, our site, etc. We give out information on a lot of this stuff. I will repeat over and over again over the years that link building the way I like to practice it because it is something that you can manipulate to your own understanding of it and its specific project. Project as well. But I always hold true to it's important to get yourself foundational link building early on. And this is going to be in the form of pillow links, citations, press releases, things that you're getting natural anchors to the homepage just to start getting crawl ability from search engines to this website. I don't venture off, I don't use money anchors. I aggressively attack the, the homepage only with natural random anchors until I see good movement in the SERPs.

Richard Hill [00:08:07]:
Using a would be more brand.

Nick Altimore [00:08:11]:
Yes, absolutely. Brand naked URL. Go to this website, you know the random stuff. Yeah. And maybe I'll do some long tail stuff just to inject some sort of like, you know, if it's a watch company brand, find watches here, brand timepieces, you know. And we start collectively building a narrative because that's what we're doing. We're building a narrative with the on page, we're building a narrative with the off page. An algorithm is coming and processing all this data and making sense of it in the form of a story that it digests.

Nick Altimore [00:08:44]:
Right. So I always go very aggressive that route. What that does is it helps insulate the site. When you do start getting a little bit more aggressive with, you know, your gray hat techniques, let's say, right where you are using exact match anchors, best watch best dive watch best, you know, all that, all that stuff that quite honestly is a lot harder to go after now. But I think I've got some tips that I've been working on that we can talk about later. Sorry for the noise, it's incredibly windy outside. So I like to see. Let's go back to that.

Nick Altimore [00:09:22]:
Pillow links, foundational links. Right. Can be.

Richard Hill [00:09:25]:
What's your, when you say pillow links for the listeners, what's sort of a definition of a pillow links? I think a lot of them will have heard of citations directories, but pillow links is more of an industry term.

Nick Altimore [00:09:33]:
Yeah. Directories, forums, blog comments, you know, anything that's just like easily accessible, you know, I know social signals count as. I mean we consider them something else. But they are crawlable backlinks. Right. So social signals I throw in there, even Web 2.0s and stuff that might be a little bit outdated, just use it naturally, you know, for example, with our products we use aged web 2.0s. They've been around forever. They're pumping real content like, you know, they'll, they'll add some value.

Nick Altimore [00:10:02]:
Not like they did five, 10 years ago. But for pillowing, they serve their purpose. Right. The entire process here just has to do with getting a lot of Links to your site, a lot of crawlability to your site that we can then branch off of.

Richard Hill [00:10:16]:
Phase one pillow links foundation.

Nick Altimore [00:10:19]:
Yeah, and also I like to pillow using guest boats, niche edits and the more expensive links as well. Because you want some authority going with natural anchors. A lot of newer SEOs, when they get started are going to go well, you know, I don't want to waste a really good backlink without an exact match anchor. Well, that's counterintuitive to what the algorithm actually wants. You want to pillow using some of these higher authority things to get a bunch of, you know, that higher trust flow kind of crawlability to your site. Once you start doing this, you're going to realize that the inner pages, if you're doing your content plan proper, meaning you've got the entire niche umbrella, right. The topical map is pretty well developed. You're going after some low hanging fruit.

Nick Altimore [00:11:07]:
You'll realize that a lot of the low hanging fruit will not need links to start ranking. And when you start seeing that inner page movement in the SERPs, you can go fine tune with a lot less energy. So you, you come in with one or two guest posts for niche edits and you do like an exact match or a long tail or something that's gonna just kind of like move it up. And you've gotta be a little bit more subtle this day and age, in my opinion, than you used to, or at least I am because I like to practice SEO for longevity. To me, the churn and burn, even if it's, you know, a couple of years and I've done this and I'll talk about it, as far as an E Comm. Endeavor that I had, it's just not. I like things to last. I would like to be able to pass it off to somebody else.

Nick Altimore [00:11:53]:
I don't like the churn and burn aspect, but so, you know, natural anchors to the homepage get that thing moving up and then you can start diversifying with higher authority backlinks like guest post niches, maybe PBN if you want to play that game and you know, more exact match anchors or strategic anchors, so to speak. Yep.

Richard Hill [00:12:15]:
Yeah, so that's the, that's the sort of overview. We've got the pillows, we've got the next steps. Like a bit like a pyramid, isn't it?

Nick Altimore [00:12:23]:
You know, 100%.

Richard Hill [00:12:25]:
Yeah, you know, we, we use that analogy in our, in our process.

Nick Altimore [00:12:31]:
Good.

Richard Hill [00:12:32]:
No, you're okay.

Nick Altimore [00:12:33]:
Well, I was going to say, you know, you have to be careful talking about a pyramid because a lot of People think well that doesn't sound good but no, it pyramid it here in the hierarchy of like you know, our diets or something like that.

Richard Hill [00:12:45]:
Right, yeah sort of the pyramid with the. The sort of quite broad foundation. You know some sort of good links coming through from probably easier but like you say even like some of the local things you can get quite easily like directories as well, local directories which quite often some of these sites have been around for decade or two. You know they've got good internal very specific categories on some of the directories, haven't they that are very specific to the niches of the. Of the E commerce stores that are you know, very real sort of categories. Subcategories that match up the watches in this instance or you know a retailer or something. They have, some of them have physical addresses which is obviously a bonus as well.

Nick Altimore [00:13:23]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah so sorry. Well I did a. A video actually last week and over the shoulder live stream on hunting domains and you know that's something that comes to mind as well. I think 301 starts or something I always really like to do as well and they help you pillow if you know what you're looking for. You know especially lately I think for local relevance finding a 301 with some very nice geographic links especially in metros where those are hard to get. Incredible hack. So you know throw a 301.

Richard Hill [00:13:58]:
So a 301 link. I think there'll be a lot of our listeners won't know what that is. I think in terms of. So you're a bit of a. I guess you're a bit of a hunter. Would that be fair?

Nick Altimore [00:14:09]:
Yes, very much so.

Richard Hill [00:14:11]:
Hunting for domains and then doing. And then doing what with domains? Maybe explain the process because I think it's.

Nick Altimore [00:14:18]:
Yeah. And you know I, I did about it. I think my over the shoulder lasted about an hour and a half. So I'll give you a little synopsis here. You can go through and you'll, you'll watch like it's a very arduous kind of thing because you take your niche and then you use a tool like Spamzilla which is going to aggregate a bunch of data on websites that have been expired meaning people stop paying for them and they dropped and you know you can buy them for seven to $10 or age domains which you can go buy it like Godaddy Auctions which are still in search a lot of the times indexed you're going to typically pay a premium form but then you can utilize those domains a bit quicker. So when you purchase a domain, you've got options for what you're going to use it for. A301 is where you take the history of that website in the form of its backlinks and you send it to a new domain. So I send watch site number three that I bought hunting domains to my watch site, money site and it's going to take over all that power from the historical backlinks that it had.

Nick Altimore [00:15:31]:
Now this used to work incredibly fast. You could do this and get things ranking really quickly. Now there's a bit more nuance to how you want to do it, especially if you're messing with expired domains, things like that. But you have to imagine that if you go and purchase a domain, let's say for even like you know, I've spent up to 15 grand on a domain because I knew what it would do for my business, right. I, I overpaid in a sense. But if you know the roi, you can get off it and you know exactly what you're trying to do with this goal set. It is very worthwhile because you have to imagine that if you get links from Forbes or, or very niche down publications, especially on something like watches, you know, try and, try and buy a watch Forbes post. I know what they cost right now because we started doing digital PR and it is not cheap.

Nick Altimore [00:16:19]:
So if you can go buy one of these domains and you're hacking, you know, sometimes up to like 50 of these links.

Richard Hill [00:16:28]:
Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:16:28]:
Think about what that does for your backlink profile right out of the gate or never mind 301 just when you're, when you're, you're conceptualizing a new business, go look and see if there's anything available for you to start off on. I like to get started that way myself.

Richard Hill [00:16:45]:
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Richard Hill [00:17:31]:
They have expired or they're expiring and some drop and they're literally $10 or so. And obviously some are more monetized and sell for, you know, a few thousand dollars, like your fifteen thousand dollar example. But ultimately you've got to weigh up them. What is that domain worth for you in terms of the, the link profile that you can point to your domain? If you're doing a link building exercise where you know, you're spending a couple of grand a month, you know, five grand a month on links, but you know, you're getting, you know, it's not, it's not exact science with the math, but you're getting, you know, ten really high authority links. So over a period of six months you might be spending thirty grand on X amount of links. But if you can buy a domain that's already got those links for a thousand dollars, five hundred dollars or five grand, but those links existed for years and years and years, they've got that history behind them from pages that existed on those sites years ago, that's a seriously powerful link, isn't it? And you're literally, it's like flicking a switch almost, isn't it? Because you literally, obviously you're getting the credit card out, you're spending the grand or whatever it is.

Nick Altimore [00:18:31]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:18:31]:
And then you're going, right, take all this power and point it to these pages or this domain and it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:18:39]:
For people that aren't, you know, very SEO minded, just conceptualize it as business A has bought business B and they are taking over and merging. That's it. That's all that's going on. And that's the narrative that you're feeding Google here. Right. Or any search. What you can do in conjunction with that is run a press release or something that says company A, bot company B. It's a good opportunity to create a narrative.

Nick Altimore [00:19:02]:
A lot of times, you know, more technical SEOs will not consider the narrative as being important, which is something that's very important for pr, that kind of concept. And you can really blend these things in, you know, and make a nice gray hat kind of messy. That works real well.

Richard Hill [00:19:19]:
So the first agency, well, our other agency is SEO trafficlab.com, you know, still, still there. But we're very much focused on Econ 1 now for the last sort of seven years. But I had the opportunity probably 10 years ago to buy. So where we are, we're in the, we're in the county of Lincolnshire in the UK and it's, I think it's the Second or biggest county in the uk. Big county. You know, land mass wise, it's huge county. So we had the opportunity to buy seolincolnshire.com. yeah, this is about 10 years ago and I bought that domain for literally nothing.

Richard Hill [00:19:50]:
I think it was like a hundred. £100.

Nick Altimore [00:19:53]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:19:53]:
And then all I did was point it to seotrafficlab.com and now we already ranked very well but now it's very hard for anybody to knock me off the ranking for SEO Lincolnshire. I think anybody listening now type in SEO linkature into Google in the UK or you know, for a UK search and we will be number. We've been number one and we've never moved and I think that's a bit one of the big reasons, you know, we bought that domain. It's one of a few things, of course. I mean it's a 15 year old domain that I own as well, which is a big thing. But we bought that domain. It had at the time about 20 links. I don't know how many are there now.

Richard Hill [00:20:26]:
And then we redirect it straight. It's like a, it was like a laser Target to number one on Google.

Nick Altimore [00:20:33]:
Yeah, I love that you brought up 20 links because a lot of times people hunting domains are gonna be like, well and I talk about this in the, every short. Oh well that's not going to do anything. It's only got 20. Referring to. No, yeah, no, no. If you're, if you know how to manually look at where these are coming from and whether they're quality or not, sometimes it just takes one or two in the right spot to really knock you up. And you know, when, when you've got that recipe and you get that number one and you're getting that traffic, it does get hard to knock the king of the hill off. Right.

Nick Altimore [00:21:06]:
You know that. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:21:07]:
Right. So we covered some good ground. We've kicked off well, we've covered a few things there. Got the foundations. We've got to be talking about 301s and B buying domains. But I think, you know, a lot of the stores that are listening in, you know, they'll have a lot of the foundation in place already. You know, they'll have quite a lot of the foundations, the directories and you know, they're going to be doing some good business and I think what's really going to help them and help them sort of move the needle, excuse the sort of puns and. But I think to move the needle is sort of more of a scalability.

Richard Hill [00:21:38]:
So building Out. You know, we've talked. You touched on digital pr, you touched on outreach and building out, you know, systematic and I know you're a big systems guy. I know we used spoke a lot about SOPs and systems and. But what advice would you give to our listeners around sort of scaling, you know, scaling the link building for their brands, what sort of systems they can maybe look at implementing or what sort of systems do you recommend for people that are really serious about it?

Nick Altimore [00:22:03]:
Okay. I think first off, people have to be honest with where they're at in their business. It's a very subjective thing and I find a lot of business owners operate under envy. Right. And I don't think that's a good place to be, especially when conceptualizing where you should be spending money in your business. So let's say I'm a pretty decent sized E comm brand and I've got the opportunity to conceptualize what I want to do with a backlinks budget. Your options are you create an in house team or you yourself start going and finding random, you know, spots on the Internet to kind of partner and you know, like you could go to like Fiverr or something, find like 15 different types of links styles and vendors and create a medley. And I've got a case study on doing stuff like that.

Nick Altimore [00:22:59]:
I'll tell you, not a great thing to do anymore. But you know, it's just that you could do that or you can go find, you know, other link vendors like myself or, or other others. There's other really good reputable link vendors out there. You know, like our flagship product is managed link building.

Richard Hill [00:23:19]:
Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:23:20]:
The reason we have that is because there's a bunch of clientele that just want to automate link building. They probably have a good understanding of it or typically they do if they've found us. Right. It's not completely new people though, we cater that as well. But they understand the value of backlinks and SEO and so we give full reporting that they could use white label, whatever. That explains exactly why we did what we did, why we're picking the recipes that we're using and giving them full fledged understanding of what we're doing. Right. So those are basically your main options is outreach, do it yourself or in house team, which is going to be a slow rule and it's going to take quite a lot of money.

Nick Altimore [00:24:05]:
You know, a lot of people don't understand the amount of work that goes into that. Sure you could probably procure links for cheaper, but once you're really into scaling, you Know, that's where, that's where I, I think about it. I, I'm like, if I went back in time and told myself, you know, what aspects of SEO to focus on, I wouldn't say backlinking. I would say sales and running an agency or something like that or whatever I was good at at the time. Backlinks is kind of a slow roll, I think. You know, if somebody's working on this, this happened recently and I'm going to put it up in the group. Somebody sent a very, very nice email to our MLB team saying, look, we really appreciate everything you guys have done. This has been phenomenal.

Nick Altimore [00:24:52]:
We've gotten good results, et cetera. But last month at a conference, I met a guy here in Australia that, like, is a really good friend fit for me. We've been doing really well. And while, like, things are going really well, I think I found something that fits a little bit better in my business right now. But, you know, praising the team for doing what they did. But they, he just found his new, you know, kind of way. I think that's an excellent way to go about it in business. A lot of times that I found you're going to go through layers, right? So at the start, look at what's most easy for you to scale up and start getting that revenue coming in.

Nick Altimore [00:25:29]:
Nothing is going to help you build a business quicker than making sure you've got a steady stream of revenue coming in. Because looking for the cheapskate way out is oftentimes a failure point for most people. And I know, because I was a failure in SEO for like the first three, four years, man, it was not easy at all. And I was looking for recipes to link building, which if I had to go back again, I'd say, hey, man, ads, other stuff, get that money coming in and then figure out these recipes, you know, So I kind of feel like I went backwards. So, you know, E Comm, you're doing well, you've already got a foundation. My personal advice would be at that time, find a company, whether it's us or somebody else, that does a managed link, building a quality one with reporting. Even if you're just going to do that for four, five, six months, you're going to get recipes to what builds success, right?

Richard Hill [00:26:22]:
You'll see that.

Nick Altimore [00:26:23]:
And then off of that, yeah, yeah, look at it. And then if you want to bring on a team, fine, start looking on upwork or any number of things and you know, take what you've learned and start playing with it. But don't Expect that you're just going to be able to come up with it right out of the gate because it's going to take you time. So that's why I say blend. Make sure you get the income. Sales matter a whole lot in entrepreneurship. Get that income and then start R D research and development. Right.

Nick Altimore [00:26:51]:
And, and then move from there. If it's profitable, cool. If it's too much of a headache, which I think a lot of people that underestimate outreach and all that, you know, sometimes they'll try it out for a handful of months and they'll be like f that, you know. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:27:08]:
So it's gone, it's gone to an 18 episode already, Nick. We're only 20 minutes in. That's the first F we've had. I'm sure it won't be the last, but that's fine.

Nick Altimore [00:27:16]:
On our show we say them sorry.

Richard Hill [00:27:20]:
So I think that's great advice. I think it's a bit of a loaded question because ultimately, you know, our listeners, you know, they're successful business owners, marketeers at sizable E Comm stores and of course they want to have a little bit of ownership, but really you want an expert doing, you know, the task or the. But obviously there's different types of link building which we've touched on. You know, it's always good to have like some of the digital PR stuff. For example, if you've got potentially somebody within the E Commerce store that can be the face of the, of the business that wants to go on podcasts, wants to be the spokesperson and that's something as a business you can get more involved with as individuals within that E Comm store. But there's nothing better than ultimately knowing that in a month in, month out, a team that is a reliable resource is building X amount of links or X amount of resources getting spent. Whether that's time, money, but usually money and usually both. But more so, you know, if you can ultimately, you know, pay a specialist like your team and our teams to build out X amount of per month on a consistent basis, you'll soon know whether it's working or not, won't you? And then obviously then that's where, you know, that's where you sort of write, invest more in certain link building strategies.

Richard Hill [00:28:32]:
Some obviously work better and so forth. And obviously you touched on the in house versus outsource and I think that's very much again, you know, it depends on the, on the size of the business. But I think ultimately, you know, if you wanna, if you're of a Certain size of a business, you need a certain volume of change. You know, I remember having a. Probably two weeks ago, I had a company come to me and they were right, we're doing 10 million a year in English pounds and we want to get to 20 million. And I said, well, talk to me about your SEO, what you're doing in SEO. Well, we're working with an agency. I said, oh, that's great.

Richard Hill [00:29:07]:
Yeah. And they're building one or two links a month.

Nick Altimore [00:29:10]:
Yep.

Richard Hill [00:29:11]:
And I was like, okay, so there's no way on God's earth, there's no way on God's earth you're going to add 10 million. I mean, I think about 30% of the rev was coming from SEO. But you want to add 3 million a year from SEO, you're not really producing much content in terms of, you know, quality and well, more volume and you're building one or two links a month. That is never going to happen or very unlikely. There's a few caveats to that.

Nick Altimore [00:29:36]:
Yeah, yeah. Miracle. Miracle happens, right? Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:29:41]:
So you've got to be very realistic, haven't you? And that sort of in house outsource to have an understanding, you know, of. But I think that brings me on nicely to my next question. So I think, you know, the, you know, going back to the watches, for example, you know, this sort of competitive analysis when we, when you're analyzing a niche or a category subcategory of an issue, you got your watches, you've got your, you know, your sports dial or your, you know, your diving watch. I think you, you mentioned, you know, how do you conduct a deep dive analysis to identify gaps that we can then build links into those. You know, just step me through that process, give us a bit of insight because I think there's some very specific things you guys do with E comm.

Nick Altimore [00:30:23]:
Sure. Yeah. So for link gap analysis, I'm guessing, right. You know, I, I don't get too crazy with it. You know, some people will, I look in a refs, I get a feel for what a link profile looks like. And since I've got a decent sized link network behind me, I'm mainly just looking at basic gauges like how powerful the link network pointed at this competitor is, which ones are maybe very niche specific and what percentage is very niche specific, I think, or geographic specific, I've noticed has been very important lately if you need those links. So, you know, I'm going to go into ahrefs and what I'm mainly doing is I'm actually just going to the serps for. And SERPS is, you know, the search pages themselves for particular queries.

Nick Altimore [00:31:18]:
So like best dive watch and I'm going to look at who's in there and then I'm going to see what other, you know, SERPs they're showing up for. And then I'm going to like manually comb these competitors in a reps and I'm going to look at what they've got going on. Then I'm going to put them against the asset that I'm working on and kind of see what's going on there. From that, I'm going to conceptualize how many links and what type of links I'm going to try and get based on the budget for either that project or for that project. Right. Or client. So it's going to change and it's going to be very subjective based on that particular asset. And really what.

Nick Altimore [00:31:59]:
Right now, whether it's local or whether it's a national campaign, because the geographic links have been an issue. And then on national campaigns, what you're coming to find is that PR and high authority kind of stuff is mattering a whole lot more. So, you know, that's why I added PR to the toolkit because sometimes you need custom outreach, which is something that's really hard to automate to scale. Right. For a bunch of clients, which is why we kind of only just added that thing. It took a lot of working on. Because if you've got your mindset from gray hat perspective and then all of a sudden you have to switch to more white hat, which is basically what's happened to me over the last couple of years. You know, you'll, you'll start working those angles.

Nick Altimore [00:32:49]:
I think as far as doing the white hat angles, you know, stuff that's going to help you is like using chat, GPT and other things that'll help you craft amazing copy, things like that.

Richard Hill [00:33:04]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:33:04]:
So, yeah, you know, so we've done.

Richard Hill [00:33:07]:
So we've, we've, we've took, we've took the, the client or the, you know, the target site. We looked at the competitors, what's ranking. We've gone to Ahrefs, you know, the, the tool of all, all SEOs and link builders.

Nick Altimore [00:33:20]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:33:20]:
And then we're basically looking at the gaps and then. Right, okay. And then what you're. Are you looking at sort of the gap like the, like looking at da primarily? Look at.

Nick Altimore [00:33:29]:
Primarily, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:33:30]:
Traffic. And then like you're going right. 30 to 50, 50 to 60, 60 to 70, 70 plus on the DA. What's the gaps? Right. We need ultimately about 300 links or whatever it may be. So this is the plan. Over the next 6, 8, 12 months, we're going to build 15 links a month and so forth and bridge that gap. But obviously the gap's changing all the time, isn't it? Obviously, if that, if that the person we're talking about, that site, obviously the gap that we've analyzed today is the 300 links.

Richard Hill [00:34:01]:
We start the process to bridge that gap, obviously in 12 months that those competitors are also doing link buildings. How do you factor that in or how do you sort of account for. Because it comes down to budget at the end of the day, I guess.

Nick Altimore [00:34:15]:
But that's what I wanted. Yeah, well, that's what I want to say. That's why I kind of ignore all this. To me, you know, this goes back to the envy route, which, you know, if you're constantly looking at what the competitor and what the winner is doing. Yeah, you might be pulling your hair trying to emulate what they're doing when you should be working on what you should be doing. Now what you should be doing often has to do with what you know, what do you have behind you? What can you utilize that's going to give you a competitive advantage against these people? Well, for me it's easy because I spent the last 10 years putting together, you know, a power hub and form backlinks. Right. So if I know that I've got my topical map completely fleshed out again, I'm predominantly using a refs to figure this stuff out.

Nick Altimore [00:34:59]:
You know, if you've got one tool to rule it all, it's a refs, you know.

Richard Hill [00:35:03]:
Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:35:04]:
So topical maps, all good. I know how much of the budget is going directly to content and which part of the map I'm building out low hanging fruit as well as the topical authority stuff that eventually I want to rank for knowing that I'm not going to immediately get that. It's all about building the stepping stones and giving that to search. Right. And letting that resonate with backlinks. It's kind of the same thing. You know, I'm primarily going to be concerned with, let's say a new client comes to me or a new project, what's your budget? All right, let's split that up probably evenly if it's a brand new site into content and backlinks, that gives me X amount of backlinks. Well, let's look at these competitors real quick and see how strong they are.

Nick Altimore [00:35:49]:
Even if I don't Have a refs and I know a lot of people don't. Your, your people probably do, most viewers. But if I don't, well, fine, grab something like Mozbar and go down the serps and just see what kind of power is there, get a feel for it and that'll help you conceptualize whether your budget is really going to be able to allow you to attack some of this stuff. Some of y' all, I'm sorry, bite off a little more than you can chew. Like, you know, maybe not so much your clientele, but some of my little guys come here and they're like, hey, I got 500 bucks a month and I want best dive watch, my man. Oh, I see. You know, so be realistic with what you're doing. But if you are going after that low hanging fruit, if you understand where your competitor is very strong and where they're very weak and then start attacking that.

Nick Altimore [00:36:40]:
The issue with considering just like a link, link gap or topical map analysis is that there's so many variables involved with ranking that you can't just look at one aspect and hope that that's going to, to give you the narrative you want, you have to continually be looking at the whole picture. And a lot of times what you'll come to find is that if you want to be one of the big, big dogs, you have to start really small and you have to start attacking serps that start kind of building a reputation that goes after this big stuff. And then once you're one of those mega competitors, well, that's when the fun happens because you don't really need too many backlinks. You're getting them. Yeah, you're crafting good content. It's auto ranking. I mean like there is no better feeling than an e comms store where you, you know, you put up a new product and it's just, yeah, out.

Richard Hill [00:37:32]:
Of the gate it's ranking. Yeah, I think that's a really well, really well sort of explained because I think, you know, ultimately, you know, a lot of E commerce stores have got, you know, thousands if not tens of thousands of products are trying to dominate the biggest key terms out the gate is, is ridiculous. You know, no matter what your budget is really ish. So if we're looking at sort of categories, subcategories, picking the right fight with the right budget, looking at the level of compet to know. Do you know what with this subcategory, diving watches for men and we've got 200 of these watches, that's a nice sub. Long tail not quite long tail, but long tailish keyword. And we've built the topical map around diving watches for men. We've now got a series of links that we've analyzed from the 5, 6 competitors or 3, 4 competitors.

Richard Hill [00:38:21]:
So we know straight away there's some really good dive type sites, there's some really good watch diving sites. There's a lot of diving sites that we can build relationships with. Actually we've got relationships with some of these already. So actually that's a real, you know, what relationships have you got in some of your subcategories categories? What manufacturers might link to those subcategories categories? And then you go, actually yeah, we're not going to rank for the word watches, but do we want to yet and do we want to at all? So it's picking the right, picking the right categories. Subcategories, which obviously all E commerce stores have. Unless you've got one product.

Nick Altimore [00:38:54]:
Yeah, it's beautiful when you go after all these subcategories, then all of a sudden you wake up one morning and that parent page is at the top three. You know, that's our language. Yeah, hard work pays off.

Richard Hill [00:39:09]:
Yeah. So I think, you know, you've covered a lot of ground very, very quickly, but I'm really keen to try and share with our listeners maybe another one or two sort of unconventional link building strategies that have been working for you, you know, maybe in the last year. Something that's quite new. You know, we've met, we've covered a few things around outreach and different pillow links and bit of pr. But what's, what's a couple of things that maybe our listeners could maybe try and attempt, you know, or maybe with some support from you guys, but also, you know, maybe on their own. What are maybe one or two a bit of an unconventional, like, oh, you know, I've not heard that. I mean you touched on 301 redirects. That's, you know, that's not talked about a lot, I don't think.

Richard Hill [00:39:50]:
But any, any others you could share?

Nick Altimore [00:39:52]:
Yeah, sure, you know, and I was kind of conceptualizing this like, you know, I gotta always bring something to the table and give a nit, you know, a tidbit that'll really pack a punch. So I was thinking, you know, I don't want to just talk, but I will talk about some stuff that over the last year was doing. Well, parasite SEO, if y' all aren't familiar with it, where you're getting a, essentially a blog post on a high authority site, then you're ranking that blog post in the SERPs in search for, you know, particular terms like Best dive watch, but it's your brand ranking there. You know, that stuff was doing really well. But a lot of people have talked on about, you know, about a lot of these things that then in December there's a big shift on that core update and a lot of people don't, they still don't know what the hell is going on. I myself have been looking but in hunting domains the other day I was and working on something specific for a client I've been, I think I found two things that I don't see anybody talking about that I was like, well I'll just bring this up here then because I kind of lightly brought it up over the shoulder. One thing that I'm noticing right now, and I know we said we'd talk about backlinks but again everything works in conjunction, right? For content, what I'm noticing is a lot of us that like to manipulate search, completely omit those opinion pieces and the type of pieces that go up on a website without any kind of search intent whatsoever. And I've started adding some of that to see what it does and so far I'm seeing some results that I think, you know, had a good amount of benefit.

Nick Altimore [00:41:37]:
So you know, maybe add a little bit of this type of informational content that's not crafted just for search. You're not putting it in surfer SEO to optimize it for keywords, things like that. Now on a backlink perspective, earlier I was talking about in local searches trying to find like in metros where there's maybe like 50,000 people and so many businesses etc. It's hard to get links that are very specific but they'll help you a lot, especially now in the map pack. So one experimental thing I'm doing and I guess I'll bring up 301s again that I haven't tried in a while is since a lot of times in these more very specific niches you're hunting for domains that like you had touched on, maybe only have like 20 referring domains going to them so they don't seem that powerful. However, whenever I purchase a domain what I'm going to initially do is build like a PBN style. So like just a basic mock up website. I'm going to look in ahrefs, I'm going to see what the most powerful pages were.

Nick Altimore [00:42:50]:
I'm going to get those built out so that the crawlability is resonating again and I'm just going to let them sit there and warm up for the next month, two months. I've even let them sit for over a year for expired domains that it took that long to get them indexed. And I'm not trying to force index do anything unnatural. I just know if I find something and I want you know, its backlink profile, then this is what I'm going to do. Then I'm going to look for it that that website to start resonating in the search a little bit or you know, just get some kind of organic value, get some traction and then I call it warmed up. And so at that point I could 301 one to another, wait a month or two, that one to another one. And all of a sudden I've built a network of three 301s with a hundred referring domains very specific to a very niche specific thing. And I can wait for that to look to have good a value and I'll still add content.

Nick Altimore [00:43:47]:
Maybe I don't, you know, work that hard on the content knowing that eventually I'm just going to just remove it and 301 it to my money site. Once it looks like it's really powerful then I'm going to do a little PR campaign, a link blast. And this is something that I'm going to touch on that I think is probably the most important thing I ever learned in link building. Early on in my education I had a buddy in the security realm who had a website who figured out some interesting security flaw and posted it. This was a little 10 page website, no backlinks going to it, no conceptual, no concept of SEO, nothing like that. Well, I put it in ARFs the next day after that content went viral and I saw how a website can get inner page links like a thousand links overnight and it just shot up through the serps, I mean rocket direct up. So I started analyzing well, what is it about this site that like insulated it? Because at the time people were like if you know link velocity is too fast, you're going to crash that site, you'll never get it back. All this fear mongering bullshit.

Nick Altimore [00:45:00]:
And sorry. And you know, it's just, it wasn't true. So I'm looking and I go ah. It has to do with the diversification of the backlinks, the anchor texts, where they're coming from. You know, all of that would be incredibly hard to emulate because most people are just selling one type of backlink. And that's when I started piecing together different types of backlinks. Because I wanted the full fledged recipe. Because if you go to my case study, 0 to 10,000.

Nick Altimore [00:45:29]:
Do not, do not do that. I need to put an update on there because all the spammy tactics I took killed that site. But you know, I talk about kind of overloading the system early on with a bunch of different types of backlinks and then going from there.

Richard Hill [00:45:48]:
Yep. Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:45:49]:
So you know, these are some things to consider.

Richard Hill [00:45:53]:
Yeah, no, I think like for our listeners, you know, when you, you know, you're trying to rank a particular category, you search for the key terms. So some of the key terms for that category, subcategory and then you see certain authority sites that maybe they're not selling the product or they're not, you know, it's not a direct competitor but these are the parasite opportunities that you can reach out to, you know, and it's quite often, quite an easy, quite an easy win, isn't it? You're adding value and quite often there's not, there's not an exchange of cash sometimes of that.

Nick Altimore [00:46:27]:
Exactly.

Richard Hill [00:46:27]:
That type of link takes time obviously, so you're still paying for it in one way or another. But these are high domain authority sites that are already ranking for that term. And that's one of the best clues ever, isn't it? If something's ranking for the terms you want to rank for, it's like, well, we want to emulate that, be on that site, reverse engineer that. Why is that there? You know, if it's pure, if it's pure, like you know, the simplest thing in simplest terms, if you're trying to rank a product, you search for that product, but it's not products that are ranking, it's something else completely. It's video, it's images, it's FAQs, then that's a bit of a clue that the sort of things you want to create potentially.

Nick Altimore [00:47:06]:
Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Follow what Google wants. You know, it's telling you in every serpent what it wants. That's always the best place to start. And then you move with the tools. Right, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:47:17]:
And then I like the idea of sort of creating new information, a new angle on information because I think obviously creating content is getting easier, shall we say. Obviously various tools that are very readily available for zero money and small amount of labor potentially. But obviously that's taking content and reworking content from that exists already. Whereas if you're taking, if you're coming from an angle that's a fresh angle or creating something completely fresh, you're adding something unique to the serp making. Making something like an asset that's more linkable to.

Nick Altimore [00:47:48]:
Exactly.

Richard Hill [00:47:49]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:47:50]:
I mean, you know, I've always liked the gray hat aspect of things, but they're a white hat campaign. And getting a viral piece of content, you know, that's phenomenal. You know, that'll propel you really quickly. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:48:05]:
Let's maybe talk about. Let me think, we've got a couple of directions. I'm thinking of going now. So let's maybe, maybe hit us with another case study. You know, obviously you talked, talked about a couple of things there, but maybe you don't have to say the brand name or unless you want to. Of course, sort of a very specific. Obviously you've got a lot of clients you're working with week in, week out, month in, month out. Some of us, and we've been with you a long, long time.

Richard Hill [00:48:29]:
An actual hands on case study of the sort of things you've been doing for a certain type of client.

Nick Altimore [00:48:35]:
Yeah, so this comes up actually quite a lot, whether it's in MLB or anywhere where we're auditing new clientele that comes in specifically. I'll see a lot of what you talked about earlier. So and so had a SEO agency. One that comes to mind is a Fortune 500 company I work with that was paying something like 30,000amonth American. And when I looked at what they did over the course of a year, it was something like 15 backlinks of no quality. The content map was all garbage. You know, we're talking about 500 to a thousand words going up, things like that. And that is a very common thing that I'm seeing.

Nick Altimore [00:49:20]:
So just doing things right the way that we do them, you know, and we talk about it all the time, build out that topical map, keep content flowing. The network needs to be alive and consistent. That's what the algorithm really wants to see, is constant content going up that's not manipulatable and backlinks, you know, without being too aggressive, etc. I can tell you that within the MLB we've got countless ecom clientele that I can look natural. Anchors, 80% to the homepage, 20% money anchors to the inner page for the majority of all these projects. Typically that's how, you know, I've taught the employees to handle things unless the client wants to do something else, and then that's on them. But I'll tell you, when people get too aggressive with things, especially lately, you're seeing a tank. And lately over the last two years, when you see that happen.

Nick Altimore [00:50:17]:
It's a pretty sad day because it's not easy to remedy this stuff anymore. So things that are really working, stick to the basics. You need content going up regularly, split the budget up. Don't think that you can stop that. You're not stopping any of this. This is a living, breathing thing. A business always is. Your website is part of that.

Nick Altimore [00:50:37]:
It needs its circulatory system going, let's call that the backlinks and whatever else is the content. And in order to function as a healthy site in the serps, you need both of those things in conjunction. But keep it simple. That's it. Like, you know, I get worried with these questions because then I'm like, well, I could tell you some complex stuff, but is that really like what helps in the end? No, it's sticking to the basics. I think that's the thing.

Richard Hill [00:51:05]:
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm. You're preaching to the choir. I think it's, you know, it's, I think the industry's over complicated itself, made it more way more mysterious than it needs to be. You know, there's a quite a simple formula there, isn't there? You're creating X, Y, Z content and of course we don't want to simplify it too much. There's a lot of research needs to go into that, that you're creating the right content. And then obviously there's the different types of relationships you need to build to build links, you know, or, you know, work with a third party like yourself. But I'll tell you one question I'm going to throw into the mix. Disavow.

Richard Hill [00:51:42]:
What's your take? Yes or no?

Nick Altimore [00:51:44]:
I rarely ever do it. And by rarely ever, I mean I don't know the last time that I did it or advised a client to do it. You know, I think that when you get to that dark place where nothing seems to be working, if you've been spammed out, etc. Then yeah, you know, get it disavowed, done. It's something easy you can do. You can go to Fiverr and get somebody to mock something up for you and then just make sure that you're actually manually combing those links. And you know, a lot of stuff they're going to get rid of is based on third party metrics that don't matter. And here's why I don't like disavows is because oftentimes in recent history, whenever somebody has been trying to spam one of my assets or a client asset, I'LL notice that it's got positive movement in the ranking.

Nick Altimore [00:52:32]:
Right. So I don't want to just. Some people are egregious. I got a bit of spam. I'm going to get in there and I'm going to automatically disappear now. There.

Richard Hill [00:52:40]:
Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:52:41]:
Let it resonate. Sometimes spam is good. Take the edge where you can get it.

Richard Hill [00:52:45]:
Take a bit of. Yeah, everyone's going to get a bit of spam whether you intentionally did it or not, sort of thing.

Nick Altimore [00:52:51]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:52:51]:
So, Nick, it's been a pleasure having you on. I feel like we could do like three episodes. I feel like we just scratched the surface. Well, I get told off if we go over too much. So I'm going to, I'm going to hit you with a couple of last questions. Crystal ball time. We're sat here in, you know, in a couple of years time and you're saying, well, link building is done. This, this and this.

Richard Hill [00:53:11]:
You know, what's your predictions? What are you, you know, obviously we've talked about a lot of different things today, but what are your predictions around where things are going with link building? Obviously you're doing a bit more or investing in digital pr. You're doing a lot more content with your. And aligning content with link building as well. But what are your sort of, what are you backing, where you put, where are you putting your money this next year or so?

Nick Altimore [00:53:34]:
Yeah, I think that's a great question because I think no matter how much you try and conceptualize where we're going to be in five years, it's hard to imagine, no matter how much information you think you have on the subject. I will say that since I got into SEO, the concept of SEO is going to be dead. Has been around the corner. I'm not worried about that. People are going to be searching and there's still always going to be some sort of algorithm that's going to function off its major tenants, which backlinking content, I mean, like, are going to be pretty hard to get away from. Right. That's a bread and butter kind of movement. So, yeah, you know, as far as that goes, I feel very comfortable that I'm going to stay in my lane and mind my own business.

Nick Altimore [00:54:20]:
I, I saw yesterday Neil Patel had put up a video that said you got one year left and then everything's gone in SEO. And he had a really, a lot of interesting good points in there. I think it's a good thing to watch. But obviously. Clickbait. Right. What I am going to do, especially when I Start considering that quantum computing is just around the corner. And that's where it starts getting real murky for me.

Nick Altimore [00:54:46]:
What I want to just kind of focus on until that's around is diversifying what I'm doing. So, you know, SEO can blend to all sorts of different digital marketing factions. And a lot of the time that's what matters is making sure that if you're successful in one field, to then diversify into a field that's close to what you're doing. And I'll just a little bit about that. I early on tried a little bit of everything. I failed at a lot of things. My first time having warehouse space, e commerce products that we were manufacturing, all that stuff, it failed miserably. You know, I lost a good amount of money on that, but I learned a lot.

Nick Altimore [00:55:37]:
And in the end that was a trial at diversification of what I was currently doing. To me, it was a little bit too far from what I was doing. So now I've reigned it in to be more related to, you know, the sirlink, Sala company or the agency. If you keep it nice and tight.

Richard Hill [00:55:55]:
Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:55:55]:
You know, you'll come to find that diversification within digital marketing is very simple. Once you've got some recipes because the clientele wants a little bit of everything or, you know, you've kind of figured out how to sell one thing, you can sell the other thing.

Richard Hill [00:56:07]:
Yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:56:08]:
So just keep diversifying. You know, even if we're not using Google in five, 10 years, there's still.

Richard Hill [00:56:13]:
Going to be searching somewhere, won't we?

Nick Altimore [00:56:16]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:56:17]:
So you know, that's on chat GPT, other LLMs that are coming out every three days.

Nick Altimore [00:56:21]:
Yeah, dude, chatgpt. I asked it a question the other day and it mentions her links a lot and I'm like, don't know how that happened, but it has to do with, I think just creating the con, like quality content. Maybe that's what's going to end up mattering. More is less, you know, content directive at search queries and more just informational content that gets bled in through just school of thought. Right. So things to consider or maybe it's time to be a little bit more intellectual with what we're doing. Maybe things are getting more advanced and it's time where. Yep, was fun while the bank run was happening.

Nick Altimore [00:56:56]:
You know, especially, especially you guys that were in, you know, 15 years ago. I am so envious of that. But you know, the times, they change and that's natural. So just keep diversifying, keep your head up and keep if you enjoy one aspect of digital marketing, it's not going anywhere. So just. That's my personal opinion.

Richard Hill [00:57:14]:
Well, thanks, Nick. It's been a pleasure to have you on. We've been trying to get this together for a while, so I really appreciate your time. I like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Any book, any book on this planet that you would recommend to our listeners.

Nick Altimore [00:57:28]:
Man, you know, there were two that came to mind. And a lot of times I'm on a business kick, and sometimes I'm on a bit more of a spiritual kick.

Richard Hill [00:57:38]:
Yeah, yeah.

Nick Altimore [00:57:38]:
I'm gonna give you both. I'm sorry for breaking the rule, but Khalil Gibran's the Prophet for a quick read that you can read several times whenever you need it, especially that little part on work and what it means and how it can help you spiritually, I think is a phenomenal little piece, especially if you're feeling down. I don't know about you, but as an entrepreneur, I have felt burnout and hard, just angles here and there that I never felt in anything else. Entrepreneurship is hard, and you need those kind words to help you through sometimes times. And then one that I like that I think is just applicable to business, to life and everything is my favorite business book ever. Even that's. I don't know if it's really business is 48 laws of power by Robert Green. And I love all his stuff.

Nick Altimore [00:58:27]:
But, yeah, you know, I can always consider something that's going on in business or life, and if there's a little bit of turmoil or something like that, I can go to one of the laws and either that or Art of Seduction or any number of them, even the 50th law with 50 cent, like, you go and you just read excerpts and it'll help you kind of understand some avenues you might want to take. And it's so broad.

Richard Hill [00:58:56]:
It's quite a big. It's quite a big book, isn't it? And quite a lot. But obviously you, like you say you can dip into it and guess, get a little gem out of where you end up sort of thing.

Nick Altimore [00:59:04]:
Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:59:05]:
Well, Nick, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very, very much for coming on the show. For those that want to find out more about you, Nick, more about and connect with you and more about links a lot. What's the best way to do that?

Nick Altimore [00:59:15]:
Yeah, sure. Check us out on Sir Linksalot co Sir Linksalot on YouTube. You know, give us a like and subscribe. We're putting out content on there all the time, you know, we're not doing courses or anything. It's all free information. I like to do it that way. And then, you know, we've got an email list if you want to check out specials. And we put tidbits of information in there.

Nick Altimore [00:59:35]:
And where we're most active is SEO Roundtable on Facebook where we've got a, you know, great lot of people in there answering questions. It's all informational, no promotional stuff, yada, yada.

Richard Hill [00:59:47]:
Yeah, no, I'd really implore you guys to go and check out YouTube and the Facebook community. You know, I've been in there for about three years now and you were always, always, always dropping like you just said a couple of times through the episode. Different videos, different case studies, what's working, trials, tests of different strategies, different clients, sort of industries, you know, some real. You sort of give away the farm on there. So really employee. Right. Well, thanks, Nick. I'll see you someday soon in another country.

Richard Hill [01:00:18]:
Who knows where I think it'll be.

Nick Altimore [01:00:21]:
Hopefully this year we'll get out for a little bit.

Richard Hill [01:00:23]:
Yeah, yeah, I'm hoping, yeah, I'll see you in Chiang Mai in a few months time. That's what I'm thinking. Nice to see you, buddy. Cheers. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button. Wherever you are listening to this podcast, you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic and I'll see you on the next one.