E90: Josh Guthrie

Richard Hill:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eComOne. Welcome to our 90th episode. In this episode, I speak with Josh Guthrie. With hands-on experience in fulfilment, digital products, retail, and, of course, now with a focus on digital payments at Mollie, Josh is the country manager here in the UK. In this episode, we talk about all things payments for eCommerce, diving into the checkout process and some of the simple things to be thinking about to improve conversions, those pesky abandoned cart challenges, and some of the best-case scenarios for improving conversions, and that post-checkout process. How can stores really improve their relationships with customers? If you enjoy this episode, please make sure you subscribe so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now, let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill:
This episode is brought to you by eComOne, eCommerce marketing agency. eComOne works purely with eCommerce stores, scaling their Google Shopping, SEO, Google Search, and Facebook ads through a proven performance-driven approach. Go to eComOne.com/resources for a host of amazing resources to grow your paid and organic channels. How you doing, Josh?

Josh Guthrie:
Hey, Richard. Yeah. All good. Thanks. How are you?

Richard Hill:
I am very well, very well. Had a cracking day. Looking forward to this one. I keep hearing lots and lots about Mollie and what they're doing in their sort of payment space. I'm really looking forward to this, but I think before we get into the tech bit and the detail, it'd be great to hear a bit about sort of your background, how you got into eCommerce, and how you started at Mollie.

Josh Guthrie:
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I'm very happy to do that. I've kind of always been interested in retail, and this is really something that... I had one friend, in particular, that we always bounced around the idea of could we start a brand ourselves. Is that something we'd be interested in? Floated lots of ideas over the time. I think partly that's because neither of us were totally enamoured with what we were doing at that point, which was strategy consulting.

Josh Guthrie:
Didn't end up taking quite that big a leap, but decided that I did want to work in retail and eCommerce so joined a company called Swoon, which is a UK homeware and furniture retailer, eCommerce retailer. That, I guess was, yeah, how I really made my first steps into eCommerce. It was a great experience there. I was really lucky to have a hugely wide, varied experience from working in the ops and fulfilment side, lots of early mornings up at our infield depot with the delivery drivers, trying to understand their experience and what it's like to deliver a sofa to someone in a 10-story block in Central London.

Josh Guthrie:
On the digital product and payment side, had experience there as well as working in marketing and retail. I really loved the fast-paced world of eCommerce, but decided I wanted to work for a technology business. Met the Mollie team in early 2020, joined Feb 2020, and been loving the ride ever since really.

Richard Hill:
Wow. Okay. Brilliant. So you've been there... Where are we? Well, it'll be 18 months or more, a bit more than that.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, just over. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
It's obviously a good span of time in any sort of eCommerce business. Obviously, things moving so fast. Now, I think it would be good then to sort of... checkout process. Obviously, super key for all eComm stores. You walk into any shop, for example. You're not getting a sale until you've checked out. Obviously, on an eComm store, there's quite a few variables there. Why would you say a checkout process is so important for eComm stores, and what sort of things are you seeing that are... Sorry, a bit of background noise there. I think someone's decided to actually start a scaffolding outside my window.

Josh Guthrie:
Nice. Yeah. They couldn't time it-

Richard Hill:
Let's see-

Josh Guthrie:
They couldn't time it any better. That's one thing for sure.

Richard Hill:
I actually can see them through my window, but we'll see how we go. Yeah. How important is the checkout process?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I think, look, one of the most important things someone who's worked through... as I know you will, Richard, and your team. If you're looking at a funnel in eCommerce and if you're thinking about, "How can we drive that improvement," you do so much effort and so much work at the top of the funnel that you really don't want to be let down by that leaky end of the bottom funnel. Checkout can really be the... That is the last stage there. I think fundamentally thinking through the funnel. That's the most important thing.

Josh Guthrie:
What we're seeing is that a high percentage of consumers in reports from Baymard, for instance, look at... You get around a 70% abandonment rate on average. You can get higher, up to 80%, 90%s. And that's where customers will really abandon checkout if they think it's complicated or untrustworthy. I think fundamentally we've got customers that are willing to leave checkout, and it's a really important step in the process. I think that's where because that's where eComm businesses really need to be paying attention.

Josh Guthrie:
I think we've also seen something interesting where I think checkout journeys and the purchasing journey has, in some cases, become so short through accelerated checkouts or social commerce where actually the checkout part itself can actually now be a relatively high percentage of the overall purchasing. If someone's looking on social, and they find something they want to impulsively buy, then that's actually going to be a large percentage of the overall experience. So they need to get that bit right.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. No, totally. What's the things you are seeing? Why are people abandoning? Why are the checkout abandon rates so high? What are some of the glaring issues that you see in the industry?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I think there's definitely things that are interesting around what might be driving consumers to be more fickle, and I think things around certain large kind of platforms. I think what we seen in terms of, say, Google Shopping as well, where lots and lots of choice is really being presented very clearly and lots of options alongside each other. I think that's making those sorts of cross-comparisons easier than ever.

Josh Guthrie:
I think if you're a retailer that's not differentiating in terms of building a brand, building differentiated products, experience, then I think that's where you can become really exposed. That's where it can be that high abandonment. I think that's a big-picture view.

Josh Guthrie:
I think, obviously, like you said, there's lots of variables. For eCommerce businesses, it can really depend on exactly the nature of their business and what they've actually got represented at their checkout, but something that we spend a lot of time looking at certainly in Mollie is obviously payer methods. One thing that we see is we're a European digital payments provider, so we work with lots of companies that sell not in the UK, just in the UK, but elsewhere.

Josh Guthrie:
It's really understanding what is the local need of that market. Are they expecting cards and PayPal or other methods that they would really expect to see there? That level of localization obviously really important in payer methods, and you apply that to, I think, lots of different other areas as well for getting the eCommerce proposition right for different countries.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Very different. So, I mean I think something on my mind... When you go to a checkout, you're about to put your card in, and it says, "Oh, do you have a voucher? Do you have a discount card," whatever terminology you're going to use? Obviously, nine times out of 10, you don't. I think some of us savvy guys now, and ladies, and gents are like, "Well, I don't, but I have a feeling you might send me one if I abandon this cart right now."

Richard Hill:
What would you say about that? Obviously, there's making sure you've got abandon cart emails in play, but, obviously, it's almost like there's a high percentage of people, I think, maybe you may correct me, that sort of expect that abandon cart email that's either going to nudge you or going to give you a discount and nudge you. Have you got anything?

Richard Hill:
The retailers that listen in... Any sort of strategies that you've seen that can maybe counter that or still make sure you're not just dropping a discount on every single sale and obviously eroding maybe a 5% margin, which is a lot of... Quite often, a lot of people do 5%, maybe 10% on first orders and things like that. That abandon cart piece when people are looking for voucher codes and things like that. What would you say about that?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I think it's super interesting one, and it's difficult, but a lot of the time, the answers may not be the short-term fix that retailers and eCommerce businesses will be looking for in terms of what can I do short-term that's most effective to drive a conversion. It might actually be sending the voucher code, and that's why it's so appealing as a retailer.

Josh Guthrie:
I think you do need to think over the long-term, "How can I build a brand and a connection with an audience?" We work with Gymshark as one of our customers, and I think they're a great example of someone who's really built an audience and really built a community around that. That drives that sort of loyalty from those customers. They're really smart with the marketing that they use to be able to really speak to that audience. I think that it's not a short-term fix, but being really clear in the audience you're speaking to and the community.

Josh Guthrie:
I think more short-term is perhaps being consistent with your pricing strategy. If consumers come to see a lot of variability in pricing, they do get conditioned into expecting those promo codes or they're always waiting for the email to announce that there's some flash sale being offered. I think that that it takes confidence to do that, but I think that that can be something that the merchants can also do to do that.

Richard Hill:
So standing strong on your pricing. Obviously, most people are on eBay, Amazon, your various marketplaces. Obviously, shopping ads, website. Obviously, that'd be the same pricing. So you standing strong across all channels rather than, oh, not doing a... Obviously, the very well-known in the UK furniture stores and sofa stores that have a sale that's ending at the weekend, but we all know has been ending at the weekend for about the last seven years. It's about that brand, isn't it? Ultimately, if you just get known as slashing prices, "Oh, there'll be another 5% off. They always do that." There's a bigger picture at play there, isn't there? Where you're just sort of conditioning people so they will know and expect a discount.

Richard Hill:
Oh, you mentioned Gymshark. Maybe Ben Francis is having a little listen to this episode. Maybe not. I know he's a avid listener. I would imagine a lot of the guys that are listening are maybe sub- £10 million turnover. Have you got any specific tips for those guys on the checkout itself? What else could they do? Obviously, there's certain things around obviously making it very clear their postcode element, post, the delivery detail, and things like that, but anything specific you see that could maybe just add a little bit of additional conversion rate?

Josh Guthrie:
Sure. Yeah. Well, I do think increasingly it's around for specifically non-payment methods. There's a lot of choice for consumers now, and I think really keeping up with that. Obviously, we've been a market that historically has really been about cards and PayPal, but I think by now, pay later. I think that's a key thing to have in your locker, in your strategy. There's obviously many different ways to buy now, pay later.

Josh Guthrie:
I think mobile wallets are driving a lot of increase in kind of convenience and ease of use at the checkout as well, so the likes of the Apple Pay, where I think that's a really key part of making the checkout experience really, really simple and straightforward. I think that that's definitely one to look at.

Josh Guthrie:
I think, like you said, making sure that everything is super straightforward and simple on the checkout around the fields that you've shown and the error messages, if there are any, helping out with postcode and address finders. All of those things to try and really keep it as simple or straightforward while offering the most choice for the different payment methods as well. That's really just looking at the UK.

Josh Guthrie:
I think that's when if you're also looking at Europe or abroad, you also need to be looking at what's expected there, and am I offering everything because we often see retailers that actually haven't understood that piece. They see quite organically a lot the times the traffic up-picking and up-ticking from those different countries, but they don't fully understand the local needs.

Richard Hill:
So it'd be fair to say then that you believe that a lot of eCommerce stores... A big issue may be that they don't have a broad enough payment offering. They might just be old-school, "Right. We've got debit and credit card, maybe PayPal." That's probably five-year-old, 10-year-old thinking, isn't it? Is that sort of what you're saying-

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah.

Richard Hill:
... where it-

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, exactly. I think it makes sense because, at the moment, that's still a large percentage of the way that we pay in this country, but things are changing quickly, right? That's one thing that we've definitely seen in eCommerce over the last few years. I think you need to be forward-thinking in that, and I think you can make different choices about who you work with to make that change easier over the next period of time. You got to be looking at can the provider that I'm working with... I think this is something that eCommerce businesses need to be asking in general, right? Is the technology provider as agile as I am? Is their pace of change allow me to move as quickly as I want to?

Josh Guthrie:
That's something that we've really focused on is how do we make the changes that our customers want to make, that eCommerce retailers want to make. How can we make them as painless as possible so that they don't have to book in time necessarily with us, that they can just do it in a sales server way from the back end? And we've got clear documentation, et cetera. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
It's quite a big education piece, isn't it, I think because they think maybe, "Oh, we got to add different payment methods. That's not going to be easy. Oh, we've always done very well with PayPal and debit or credit cards." How easy is it now to add additional payment methods? So we've got that by now, pay later, obviously, Apple Pay, different split pay, different types of finance, and others. How easy is it to add in various options now?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. I mean it definitely driven by the technology that you're using. Obviously, you can make different choices around how custom things are for you versus taking something off the shelf and working with that. That obviously differs a lot with size of eCommerce retailer typically. For the likes of, say, a WooCommerce or a Shopify as well, it can actually be very easy to toggle these things on and off, and they've got great presets. So that actually introducing that into your checkout, having not offered it before, is something that you can do very straightforwardly and-

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, so I think that that is part of the education piece, and it's something that historically hasn't been there. We definitely have customers that we work with eCommerce retailers that we work with where they're definitely surprised by, oh, it's just going to be popping on a call to just point you in over your shoulder to click on that and click on that or even just to send them a video or a how-to article. And they can just do it totally on their own. So definitely an education piece, like you said, Richard.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. No excuses then really, guys, is there, I think? Guys that are listening in, I think personally, I'm a bit of a debit card kind of guy. I put my debit card in, and I'm probably a bit of an Amazon addict, which I hate to admit, but I am, and I shouldn't be. I sort of kick myself every time, but it's convenience. I think when I'm on a store, debit card. Obviously, you do see obviously that split pay, various split pay and buy now, pay later leading brands that are... They're coming out, quite a few. I'm not going to mention their names in this episode, but they'll be coming on the show in the next few weeks, sort of taking over the world. A lot of the big split pay type brands that are out there...

Richard Hill:
You can take your £200 thing, pay £50 now. What do you think about that when you hear all sorts of reports that obviously that enables people very quickly to buy things at a quarter of what they were going to pay? Potentially get into a little bit more trouble financially. What's your take on that? I think I'm on the side of the eCommerce store, but, ultimately, I think it's a lot easier for people to buy things that maybe can't afford it.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. I mean I'm not a expert on the regulation piece around this. Firstly, I definitely want to say that. I think one thing I would say is that certainly the partners that we work with in this space have been really proactive with the regulators, and engaging with that, and making changes. I think that there are definitely... With any innovation, there's always going to be these types of issues that come up, and I think it's just really important that we have the people who offer that and the companies that offer that really engage in a responsible way. So far, I think that on the whole, certainly with the partners that we work with, are continuing that.

Josh Guthrie:
I think the flip side as well is that there are credit products that have been out there for a long time, and this is offering it in a different way. That's the innovation piece that needs to be worked through, and monitored, and regulated. Credit, for sure, is not something that's new out there, and perhaps this is a different audience. Again, there's an education piece that needs to be taken seriously. Yeah, I think, like you said, I think it can be, when it's implemented well, really great for eCommerce merchants and also for consumers as well.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Well said. Brilliant. Going back, we touched on processing, payment processing, but going back to the checkouts themselves, who would you say... If our listeners were going to have a look at some super, super, super slick checkout processes and checkouts, who do you think's doing well? What would be your go-to reference? Who would be your go-to reference for checkout?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. Don't think I'm going to pick out an individual brand there, but one thing I would say, which I think to your point around being still a man of the debit card, definitely think try your Apple Pay or your Google Pay. I think that that's something where I feel like that's become a real standard for can you offer that ease, as well as with the buy now, pay later options. I think that's when I'm kind of happy on a checkout and when I think that we're doing well is that when we've got that because I think that really offers for those customers... Especially if you've got a high mobile traffic, I think that offers a really great experience there.

Richard Hill:
Google Pay, Apple Pay, yeah. I have to admit I don't use them. I think I've just bought a new phone, and I was like, "Do you know what? I know I'm actually like a dinosaur when it comes to that, aren't I really?" My children don't even obviously... They just use their phone for everything, you know teenagers, for purchasing, but I still use a debit card.

Josh Guthrie:
Today can be the day. You can do it right after this. You can just go and-

Richard Hill:
Nah.

Josh Guthrie:
Nah. You're just not interested.

Richard Hill:
Which you're the opposite. Yeah, obviously, there's a little bit of an age difference, I guess. You literally Apple Pay, Google Pay everything depending on what phone you-

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. Well, I do have an iPhone, so I use Apple Pay there, but I think, yeah, it's a great convenience driver. Yeah, I think that that's something where I think I'd love to see more eCommerce businesses really looking for that and offering it.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it, the speed, the convenience, so, so quick because it's your account, and it's straight in. I'm not going to mention the tool, but I use a password tool on my phone, so it's not like I'm typing my credit card in every time. I've got it saved in a locker sort of thing.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah.

Richard Hill:
So I'm [crosstalk 00:19:42] there like, "5962." It is quite quick. It works probably not quick as a click, click. It's more of a 10 clicks probably, but it's pretty quick, or six clicks. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. I guess that is interesting because as an eComm store, obviously, you've got people of a certain age that are used to a certain way, and, obviously, more people are moving definitely towards Apple Pay and Google. I know that from with the clients, and my children, and so forth.

Richard Hill:
Obviously, different demographics do use different types of payments potentially. Obviously, that's where if you've got that multi, four, five, six different options on that, then the ones that want finance, split pay... Then you're covering it all off, and everyone's got their preference rather than ugh. If you went to a site that didn't have Apple Pay, it'd potentially put you off. You might have a quick look and see if you could find the price elsewhere.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. For me personally, it's not as much as that. It's more just it's more likely to stick for me as a experience that was a positive one and one that I'd be very happy to go back to that. I think to your point around how things are likely to change, I think devices, in general, not just phones, but it's still a bit mind-blowing to me, and I'm someone who's in the payment world, to see people pay with their watch, whether that's an Apple Watch or it's a Garmin or whatever.

Josh Guthrie:
I think devices, in general, are really interesting driver of how we're likely to pay in the future for digital payments in general. That's eCommerce, but other types of services as well. I think Apple Pay's a really good kind of embodiment of that, but it probably speaks to the broader trend around how do we use devices and how is that going to trend.

Richard Hill:
That's a great topic, isn't it? I think I've actually just ordered one of these Oura Rings for... but it doesn't do the payments, I mean, is my understanding. I got it more for the fitness and the sleep side of things. When I was researching that, obviously, there are rings that you can set up for your Apple Pay and Google Pay. I did look at that. They were reasonable actually. They were like 60 quid, I think, or something. There was one I did see, and pretty much that's what it does as opposed to loads of other fitness things, but...

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, they've been spreading like wildfire around the Mollie office. There's lots of people wearing them at Mollie at the moment. I think people tend to be quite interested in those sorts of devices. Yeah, definitely one to watch, and I'm sure that they'll just get smarter and smarter.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. I think, yeah, great tech to see. Just little tap with not even getting your phone out. It's just another split-second saving when you're out and about. I guess it's quite cool potentially when you're just get into the coffee shop, just a quick flick of the wrist.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, exactly. I think that that's it. It's what you're paying for. Going down and paying for parking or maybe we're not doing that so much anymore, but whatever it is that you're doing, having those sorts of things just drives a lot of ease. Yeah.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, yeah. No, great. I think that's one to watch out, isn't it? I think the-

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I've never been that convinced by the usefulness of the sleep analytics though because when I've had a bad night sleep, I tend to wake up knowing that I've had a bad night sleep [crosstalk 00:22:50] wanting to be told how bad it was.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, there is that. There is that. Yeah, but you do know when you've had a good night's sleep as well, don't you? Which you wake up feeling great or you wake up feeling crap.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Richard Hill:
I don't have a fitness tracker on in bed, but my wife wears the... I forgot what you call it now, but, ultimately, you wake up, and she's like, "Oh..." You'll know that you're awake for half an hour whereas you might have forgotten. You might have done. I'm really keen to finalize that more for myself. I'm waiting for my fitting kit to arrive from the States, which I think'll be here tomorrow actually. Then they've just brought out a brand new... Well, it's coming out on the 15th. Well, I will get the new one and go from there.

Richard Hill:
Okay. Post-payment, somebody's been on the store. They've purchased. They've had a good experience. They got the price. They got the product. They paid with a payment method of their choice, but what else can retailers, eComm stores do to make sure that post-checkout process is a really good experience? I've heard of all sorts of things over the years, people following up with certain things, and just making that customer think, "Flipping hell. What a cracking experience that was." What sorts of things are you seeing with your clients that-

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I still think delivery and certainly the time between... There are a few things that are as hard to deliver easily and smoothly as big pieces of furniture, so we spend a lot of time obviously thinking about this. I think it's still final mile of any type of product is still a challenge. I think making sure you've got the right delivery partners.

Josh Guthrie:
I think you're seeing some really interesting technology partners come through as well that allow you to sit on top, and aggregate, and work with multiple depending on different phases, different seasons, different products. I think that that's really interesting thing that the businesses can do because, ultimately, the best thing that you can do there is just make sure that the customer gets it on time as they're expecting. I think that that's definitely a key one.

Josh Guthrie:
It depends a little bit again on the industry, but the post-order and pre-delivery communication as well. Either in the worst case if there were delays, then being really proactive on that, but even if it's something that's just going to take a bit longer to arrive, just making sure that you're managing expectations, letting the customer know where it is. Ideally, perhaps for probably higher-value goods or things that take a bit longer having some sort of account or updated automatically so they can see where it is. I think that those are things that can really just help because a lot of people, I think, worry about where it might be or it takes up that mental load of, "Where is that item?" So doing everything you can to take that off, I think, is a great thing.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. No, I think that's even more so with, obviously, people doing a bit of split from work from home and work from office, bit of a coworking. Obviously, it's very different for everybody, but for myself, I've got this office here. Then I work from home. It's changed a lot, as everybody, for the last however. Some days, I'm sending stuff here. Some days, I'm sending stuff home, "Oh, I need to change it. Oh, I won't be in, and I said I would be, but now, I need to change it to deliver to the neighbour," or whatever it may be. Yeah, those comms post, I think, is... And just knowing where it is and seeing that trackability, I think is more key than ever. We're just busy, aren't we? Everyone's busy. They want to know when it's coming in. Especially-

Josh Guthrie:
Exactly. I-

Richard Hill:
... if you work from home, you may be on a Zoom call or whatever, and you got a rough feel of when it's coming so you can get ready with the mute.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, yeah. We're all busy, but life's still unpredictable, and so I think that flexible piece that you touched on is key as well. Which location? Is it work? Is it home? Is it the shop around the corner? And I think having all those options is supercritical as well.

Richard Hill:
Yeah, brilliant. I think it'd be good to close off with a bit of a future thinking. If we were sat here in 12, 18 months... not that long, but I think eCommerce years are more like five years in most industries. Next 12, 18 months, what sort of things should our listeners be looking out for? What can they expect on the payment side of things?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I think the choice, like we talked about, is going to keep growing and growing the range of methods available. I think that's definitely one area to look at. Obviously, things that we can imagine will become more popular, and things that we can't imagine will pop up. I think devices is one thing for sure as well where I see that growth in digital payments, not just in the purist eCommerce application, but we're seeing things like marketplaces. We're seeing B2B and wholesale payments as well. Yeah, so services by devices, in general, being purchased that way.

Josh Guthrie:
I think subscriptions is a super interesting one as well. Everyone wants to be a recurring revenue business for good reasons, and I think customers really like it as well. I think subscriptions and making that as easy as possible by offering those sorts of payment methods. Yeah, that model is a really good one.

Richard Hill:
I think that's a great finish. Guys that are with us, I think how are you going to build if you don't already have it, a subscription business into your... I don't want to say traditional eComm store, but if you're selling... We've talked about fashion. We've talked about larger items, but what else can you sell, and add on, and bulk into your existing store as a subscription? I run subscription businesses, and I have done for 12 years. I'm with you with that. It's the best type of business, I think, that regular, forecastable revenue. Yeah, subscription, I think, is a great finish.

Richard Hill:
Now, I always like to finish every episode with a book recommendation. Do you have a specific book that you'd recommend? I'm having a guess you're quite an avid reader looking at your shelf behind you.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, yeah, I do definitely like to read. I don't read too much nonfiction actually, but what I have become quite addicted to lately is Blinkist. I don't know if you've heard of that, but-

Richard Hill:
Yeah, I have it right here.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. I'm really enjoying that to get through the nonfiction that for some reason otherwise doesn't stick with me. Otherwise, I recently read a book, Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry. It's just got the best reference ever, which was described as the War and Peace of cattle drive novels, which I think is the most impressive reference that I've ever heard. So definitely recommend that one.

Richard Hill:
Wow. Wow. I'm a definite fan of Blinkist myself. For those that aren't familiar with it, it takes a lot of very, very popular books and summarizes them in a 10-minute version. Then, obviously, if you find one that you like the 10-minutes version of, you can then obviously go off and buy that on Audible if that's your flavour of, well, that. Obviously, a book as well, but it just gives you a... so if you're sitting in a gym... well, not sitting in a gym. You're at the gym for half an hour, you can potentially do three books in half an hour and get a feel for three different books or three different topics.

Richard Hill:
I think it's also quite good if you've read a book that really resonated with you. You can go back to Blinkist just to get that 10-minute refresher, then it'll start to come back to you more as well, the book that you liked. Quite often, I'll read a book that I really like, and then I'll buy the Blinkist. Well, I'll listen to, should I say, a few months later.

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah, I totally agree.

Richard Hill:
Yeah. Brilliant. Well, thank you, Josh, for being on the show. For the guys that'd like to find out more about you, more about Mollie, what's the best way to do that?

Josh Guthrie:
Yeah. Definitely go to mollie.co.uk. I'm also very happy to be in touch directly, josh.guthrie@mollie.com.

Richard Hill:
Fantastic. Well, thanks for being on the show. I'll speak to you again soon.

Josh Guthrie:
Thanks for having me, Richard.

Richard Hill:
Thank you. Thank you for listening to the eComOne eCommerce Podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please hit subscribe, and don't forget to sign up to our eCommerce newsletter and leave us a review on iTunes. This podcast has been brought to you by our team here at eComOne, the eCommerce marketing agency.