E178: Dan Temple

Leading with Empathy and Cultivating High-Performing Teams

dan temple black and white headshot

eCom@One Listen on Spotify

Podcast Overview

Are you a leader or a manager? 

Everyone knows that your boss has more impact on your life than you’d like. They have the power to make you love your job, the majority of the time, or struggle tirelessly both mentally and physically. 

So, how do you become a leader that inspires, motivates and retains talent for years to come?

Lead with empathy.

Dan Temple shares how in this week’s podcast. 

eCom@One Presents:

Dan Temple

In this episode, Richard Hill sits down with Dan Temple, Director and Lead Trainer at Cobalt Human Solutions. By focusing on the most important element of your business, your staff, they take the Human Factors learning from safety critical industries such as aviation and healthcare and apply it to your business, regardless of industry.

Humans are invariably highly motivated, trained and skilled people yet they make mistakes. Cobalt doesn’t help organisations come to the conclusion it was ‘human error’, it helps them work out why the error was made in the first place through engagement and training.

Richard and Dan explore the essential qualities of effective leadership and the impact of employee engagement on business performance. Dan, with nearly 20 years of military experience, offers valuable insights on cultivating a supportive and resilient team culture, discussing the importance of addressing mental health in the workplace and nurturing individual strengths. 

Join us as we delve into the practical strategies and mindset shifts that can drive organisational success and employee wellbeing. Save the headache and support your team today.

Topics Covered

00:20 – Understanding human behaviour and teaching human factors

06:01 – How Dan’s Military experience translates to the corporate world, using stories to connect with others emotionally

13:44 – Reflecting on biases and seeking self-awareness

18:05 – Change and repeating past mistakes

26:15 – Questioning discrepancies between training and actual performance and understanding employee behavior

34:02 – Curious, active team members use Slack frequently.

38:40 – Encouragement for young leaders to invest in people and reflection for business success

41:51- Focus on incremental motivation and common aim for team success

51:19 – Dan’s wife becomes Assistant Head at a school in Lincoln City after a competitive interview. Emphasizes the importance of people in leadership

54:06 – Supporting team members struggling with mental health is important for leaders

01:02:23 – Book recommendation 

Richard Hill [00:00:04]:
Hi there. I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and I'm back after the height of the rays of the amazing Rowan Payne last week. Welcome to episode 178. Now in this episode, I'll speak with Dan Temple, director and lead trainer at Cobalt Human Solutions, one of my favourite episodes in quite a while. The human side of running a business, building and supporting a team. The key to scaling may be a huge part in my opinion. Now Dan comes from managing and leading military teams in some of the toughest situations and conflicts around the world and now brings his 22 year service to the workplace. Now in this episode, we talk dynamics and building a strong team.

Richard Hill [00:00:44]:
We talk leadership and managing mental health, hiring and retaining your team for the long haul. Now when things get a little bit tough, how can business owners empower their people to keep pushing forward? An absolute cracker of an episode. Now if you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast so you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now Let's head over to this fantastic episode. Hi. Welcome to the podcast. Really great to see you, Dan. Good morning.

Richard Hill [00:01:17]:
Thanks for having me. No problem at all. I think, think, I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into all things sort of performance and growth and team. Yeah. Before we do, I think it'd be great for you to introduce yourself to our listeners and how you got into the world of sort of high performance coaching

Dan Temple [00:01:31]:
Yeah. Sort of team dynamics. So Dan Temple, did nearly 20 years in the air force. Most of that was launching of helicopters, so operating all around the world. Hot, cold environments, quite kinetic. 9 tours of Afghanistan, so quite busy at times. Throughout that time, I was an instructor, trainer, and then also a standards officer. And what's what I did was flew with people regularly, assessing, sort of reporting on them if you like directly for the squadron commander.

Dan Temple [00:01:55]:
But within that, I really got an eye of sort of understanding why people used to call us trappers like the squadron. They feel the, the standards would be the trappers eComOne in that are there to catch you out, so to speak. It's not about trying to get it's trying to understand why people do what they do so we can then change it. Because if people are doing things wrong, it's working out why. Because ultimately, we're improving some performance. So from that, I got to human factors, understanding why we do what we do as humans, how we interact with ourselves, with equipment, with processes, that sort of stuff. And then I was invited up to Cromwell to teach up there for 3 years. I spent 3 years training people to be facilitators in HFs, human factors, and it just really grew my passion.

Dan Temple [00:02:34]:
Did a business degree within that sort of things as well, and then was selected to do an MBA at Crownfield, fully funded by the air force, which was brilliant. And then, unfortunately, my world fell apart when I was diagnosed with PTSD, so I was struggling quite badly with my mental health. And the air force said, thanks very much for your 20 years, but, you're no longer useful to us. They didn't quite word like that, but, it's pretty much what happened. And I'd have been running Cobalt Human Solutions alongside for the last year or 2 with a view to getting it, and it's exactly that. It's understanding why we do what we do as humans and what influences our performance. Mhmm. And then from that, when I left on my right, let's actually get up and running.

Dan Temple [00:03:10]:
And here I am now, time with you, running

Richard Hill [00:03:13]:
the business. Wow. Wow. I mean, if you unpack that for a minute

Dan Temple [00:03:15]:
There you go. Yeah. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:03:17]:
I think something that, you know, has cooked us lots there, and I'm really excited to chat through all the different elements there and how you sort of obviously take in those learnings and all those years, you know, in, in, I guess, you know, very challenging environments and and and situations, bringing that to, you know, business and the corporate world. But something there that resonates and is something on my mind is, you know, you spent how much of 20 years in in the service? Yes. It was. You're sort of saying that, you know, you know, obviously, some challenging times, during that time and and the later years diagnosed, you know, about that sort of lack of support from the military at that time. Has that changed since then, you think? Or

Dan Temple [00:03:59]:
I I think when you say lack of support, it's I think the intent is there. Yeah. But the the challenges and it there's there's no secret right now. You can read about it. The retention challenges. Any business goes through, but certainly the military as well. The military comes through at a very challenging time in terms of recruitment and retention. It's not something new.

Dan Temple [00:04:17]:
It's been happening for a number of years. Depends on who you talk to. Now some say, be careful what you say, but actually to know what I put out there that when if people are listening, then they get to the answers. And I with with Cobalt, we look at a thing called RCP, recognize cause prevent. It's all recognize identified brain. You need to recognize what the problem is. Then you need to identify the cause or factors to prevent it happening again. Too often in business, and then you see it across with the military, recognize what the problem is.

Dan Temple [00:04:43]:
Right? How do we prevent it? And we're doing this. How can we stop this? Never addressing the causal factors. So the support is there, but even then the support is not fully researched, fully funded, and fully resourced, if you like. They don't just mean financially people. People are leaving Yeah. And why they're leaving. So that then impacts on the ability for people to then go and say, do you know what? I'm struggling. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:05:05]:
And then you talk about that in terms of mental health is as well is just the mantra, just the culture that you're in. Yeah. And again, when the HF comes in, everything around us, the environment we're in, it's not the hot cold snowy. Yeah. It's that culture. If there's a culture of very sort of stoic. Yeah. Stoic is good, but also we're in the military.

Dan Temple [00:05:23]:
We're a war fighting organization. We need to get shit done and move on and Yeah. Haven't got time for this Gen zed woe, snowflake generation, all the stuff that people stereotype, and then it's like, well, we don't talk about it. We break people. Oh, we didn't break in our day. Yeah. They did. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:05:38]:
We still did. Yeah. And this is why we got suicide as one of the biggest killers of men above 40. Yeah. Yeah. So to say it's not there, I think the intent to support is there, but it it may be not could be as better as good as

Richard Hill [00:05:50]:
it could be. I guess that translates to a lot of, you know, the corporate world as well. It it differ obviously, you're going through a lot more, I'm sure, extreme environments and extreme and extreme situations in the military.

Dan Temple [00:06:01]:
Yeah. But you but then you say that, and this is the thing that's normalizing. So what do I do? A lot of the stuff we did in the military, and this is translating to the corporate world. So people are like, well, I may often put a picture of about crashed helicopter and say, who can relate to this? And a room full of a 100 legal professionals are like, well, nobody. So I'll tell the stories about how it happened, the resources, the allocation, the time frame, everything that's changing over the course of a week or 2, and all the parameters. And they're like, now they relate to it. Because whilst you might not be able to relate to the outcome, the process of the human emotion that we go through, that sort of things. But again, in real life, yes, I had extreme example because those things I saw and did Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:06:35]:
In my role, but there's no difference to the police. There's no difference to the fire service. The blue light service is here that every single day. So when I was deployed, we do 3, 4 months at a time. Army black part timers, we did 6 months at a time, but what we were doing, and we were doing it every 8, 9 months. So we were going out, coming back, going out. Yes. That was extreme, but that was only for 3, 4 months.

Dan Temple [00:06:56]:
The police are doing it every day. They get strapped on that body armor. The ambulance service, the fire service, they go into that. They sit ready to do that every single day, And the danger is we normalize trauma. But then you bring it right back into everyone's under pressure. You look at the VUCA world that we talk about. I mean, by VUCA, so the volatile and certain complex and ambiguous. People don't know about the h, hyper connected.

Dan Temple [00:07:19]:
This digital shouldn't know what you guys do. We are so hyper connected Yeah. But we're actually more disconnected. And that's challenging itself. So that pressure on people to perform Yeah. We talk about the monetization and all that sort of stuff. They're real life pressures. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:07:33]:
So actually to compare a extraction from a casualty, whether it's a civilian or military casualty under contact is really no different, certain degree. So Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:07:45]:
Can you Yeah. What I need No. I can

Dan Temple [00:07:47]:
How many people have you got working for you here, Charles? Yeah. 23. 23. So if if you have a Liam here for whatever reason, that pressure on you, I'd imagine, is quite real because this is 23 people's their jobs, their lives. Yeah. So that has its own challenges. So that pressure that we're under, how we respond to that, I think is key to sort of translate and understand.

Richard Hill [00:08:07]:
I I can see the connection 100%. And I think, the listeners will be there won't be many business analysts that haven't, woken up at 3 in the morning thinking about that thing that's, you know, into the outside world might be nothing.

Dan Temple [00:08:19]:
Yeah. But really Also everyone everyone in that business to the the newest, most junior person, if you like, without sort of bringing hierarchy into it, They've they've got their own challenges. They're out for a job.

Richard Hill [00:08:29]:
So, obviously, you work with a lot of leaders, and business owners now. Yeah. Yeah. What would you, obviously, your experience from the military to working with different organizations of all different sizes, you know, and our listeners will range from, you know, a guy selling things that, you know, to a guy that started selling things and has now got 400 people working. Yeah. I mean, obviously, different pressures like we say. Yeah. That first guy trying to pay his mortgage, you know, and pay for the food for the kids, you know, the guy trying to find the wage bill at the end of, is to, you know, depending on when when this episode, like, goes live.

Richard Hill [00:09:01]:
At end of the month, we've got to find a, you know Yeah. A 10 or a $400,000,000 or a 2,000,000 quid wage bill. Yep. You know, that's, that can obviously cause some serious challenges in business when we're in a a challenging time.

Dan Temple [00:09:13]:
Yeah. Obviously So as

Richard Hill [00:09:14]:
a as a team of of leaders within a business, what dynamics do you think make a good team? For me, so the the the dynamics of

Dan Temple [00:09:23]:
the team is straight away is accountability and integrity. Yeah. And that that's up and down and across. People talk about leadership as leadership from top down. And Yeah. Just because you're a leader, it's not you're in charge. You're not in a position of authority as a leader. Everyone is a leader.

Dan Temple [00:09:36]:
It's a leader's about inspiration. If you're a manager, then that's a position of authority. You're responsible for things, and people aren't things. So we don't manage people. It's one of my bugbears. Yeah. Never show, you tell. So we had a guy on the squadron, he says, oh, my name's Steve Davis, but don't call me Mavis.

Dan Temple [00:09:51]:
Okay, Mavis. That was 20 years stuck. You never say, but, you know, we don't Everyone's got a name. Everyone's got a name from now on in. Yeah. Exactly. But, never knew his real name, actually, until somebody told me that story.

Richard Hill [00:10:01]:
Does everybody have a nickname in the military?

Dan Temple [00:10:04]:
Not everyone. I was known as I was known as DT or Grooves, so does your name? Because it's my name, but Grooves because always always were Grooving. Scrounger, so the great escape. If you wanted to know anyone, if you needed something, you go and see DT because he'll be grooving away. You'll find the thing,

Richard Hill [00:10:18]:
sort of thing. Yeah?

Dan Temple [00:10:18]:
I'm always chatting to people because he's been a nice person. Yeah. I'll go to stores. Oh, they're really horrible in stores. They never get this. Do you torture him like an asshole? And you made me wonder why. He'd be decent for not being, sorry. Swearing there.

Dan Temple [00:10:29]:
Just after 18 now, I'm guessing now. But, the dynamics in terms of it's it's definitely it's accountability integrity. It doesn't matter what level you're at. So if you hold yourself to account and just own your mistakes Yeah. Yeah. We talk about accountability versus culpability. They're 2 very different. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:10:46]:
And people if I'm leading a team with a project and that's gone wrong, I'm accountable for that. Yeah? It's not to say I'm to blame Yeah. But I need to own that. I'm gonna take ownership. And that's it. So you know what? Right. What went wrong? Too often we write, who? Who did that? What did that? What in this? And it's that culpability. And we try and I hope the organization is to get out of that mindset.

Dan Temple [00:11:05]:
We might not they might not be in it intentionally. They might not realize it, but the culture is such that. So that accountability, if you can't hold yourself to account if I can't hold myself to account, you're not gonna trust me. Yeah? And I need integrity to do that. Yeah. So the key fundamentals for me are integrity and accountability, and then they will develop trust. Yeah. Because that position or role you hold Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:11:27]:
That doesn't engender trust and respect. That's gotta be earned. And then you know the expression trust comes in on comes in on foot and leaves on a horseback. There's there's expression. So for that, the dynamics, but in terms of sort of team roles, you need to make sure that the team are all. I talk about aims. So the team needs to have the sole aim. They've got to be rolling the same direction.

Dan Temple [00:11:46]:
If people don't understand or don't know why. Yeah. People think I have different agendas. Well, you've got your aims. And then within that, you have your roles and responsibilities within that team. So everyone knows what they're doing and what their responsibility is. Go on, sorry.

Richard Hill [00:11:59]:
So you make it sound very easy, you know. So there is.

Dan Temple [00:12:03]:
I've been talking it for years and years.

Richard Hill [00:12:04]:
Yeah. And I'm like nodding along. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. But I know. You know? And I think a lot of our listeners will be like, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:12:11]:
That all sounds straightforward. You know? Countable accountability trust. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, treat people right. You know? There's a bit of problem

Dan Temple [00:12:17]:
with There's common sense, isn't it? You know? It's common sense, but it's not common.

Richard Hill [00:12:20]:
The reality is, you know, you're on the cold face, you know, of the business. You're that manager. Yeah. And, you know, you may be struggling, if you like, to to manage that team. Yeah. And if you're one of those managers listening in, what advice would you give them to do the things you just said to you know, something happens or something's maybe not going as it should, which is a maybe a weekly occurrence in a in a busy, busy business. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:12:41]:
Yeah. You know, navigating, you know, the commercial side, the people side, you know, and the boss is, you know, set targets for you as a manager to see your x y zed, but obviously in a nice way hopefully and Yeah. Yeah. Not in a I don't know. It's a lot of stuff.

Dan Temple [00:12:54]:
Sales target spoon at the board. Look at that. You're not meddling.

Richard Hill [00:12:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, ultimately, the human, you know, factor of, you know, working with people, and no doubt working with an array of age groups of people, you know, and different personal, challenges within that team that they're going through, whether that's to do, you know, with all different things can be going on. Yeah. What advice advice would you give to that maybe that manager that's feeling quite anxious about

Dan Temple [00:13:20]:
that position? Probably the biggest one would be look in the mirror. Generally, look in the mirror and look at yourself because too often, I've done coaching over the years. And I remember one coach, he would come in, quite a big lad quote broad and he'd sit there and he's, I'm so frustrated and Yeah. People didn't listen to me and I'm in meetings and I'm giving the ideas and then afterwards and Yeah. And then I say, right. What about reflection? So I went through some of it. And he said, yeah. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:13:44]:
I go in. I walk my dog, and we spend about an hour and I reflect. And he wasn't reflecting what he was doing. He was convincing himself that he was right and everyone else He's wrong not reflecting on what they that's a feedback and their situation just reflected on why aren't they doing maybe what I'm asking rather than right. Also, he convinced himself, his confirmation bias, so he was then looking for all evidence to support why he was right. I would say look in the mirror. Self awareness, emotional intelligence is another key that underpins us human beings. And again, we talk about it, it sounds very simple.

Dan Temple [00:14:13]:
Well, it's simple, but it's not easy. So, yeah, it might be simple, it might be. And anyone can read a book, Go and read Daniel Gorman. Go and read Simon Sinek. Go and read Adam Grant. Those names could go on. Read the book, but you're book smart. And I call it the Goodwill Hunting effect.

Dan Temple [00:14:26]:
If you've seen the film Goodwill Hunting Yes. Do you know when Sean and Will are in the office? And Sean says to him, tell me about Raison's heart. And Will starts quoting some and then he's, you're talking bullshit. You You see, just reading from a book. You've never been and stood in the Sistine Chapel. Anyone can read a book and talk about leadership theory until you've done it and understood, But that comes with the most intelligence and experience, and that's where the generations in the workplace is key. Yeah. Because bridging that gap, you can have 4 generations within the workplace right now.

Dan Temple [00:14:56]:
Yeah. But you've got that. So when you're working to maybe a boomer who has always done it this way, it was always the same, and then, like, and then gents are like, yeah, whatever. You got the forgotten generation x in the middle of it like to be known as, and then the millennials in between as well. Yeah. So looking at that emotion intelligence is key. Yeah. Self awareness.

Dan Temple [00:15:15]:
Yeah. True self awareness, but then you look at self management. Have you ever worked for a boss, I mean, you've had the business now sort of 20 plus years, I mean, but if you remember sort of in your previous working life, you worked for a boss who was very loud and just do this, and this is how it's done, and while I'm very emotionally intelligent because I know that this is how I am and people accept it. Yeah. That's not emotional intelligence. That's self aware. Mhmm. Where's the self management? Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:15:39]:
And then where's the social awareness? It's how you impact others and then how you manage those relationships. Yeah. So the biggest key I would say is look in the mirror and be genuinely true to yourself, and then ask those questions. Because if there's a common thread, start turnover. You've got high star turnover. Mhmm. It's not the problem with the hires. It's not the people coming in.

Dan Temple [00:15:58]:
They're not recruiting the wrong people. Because thousands of other businesses out there have a very low start turnover. Yeah. They have a high sense of employee well-being, high engagement rate. Their employees feel valued, and they're purposeful.

Richard Hill [00:16:11]:
Because I think that's, you know, that's a network. There's a lot of things there, Dan, and

Dan Temple [00:16:14]:
I think I think, Yeah. You're sorry. It's it's ADI.

Richard Hill [00:16:17]:
No. No. But no. I've no. No.

Dan Temple [00:16:18]:
I'm I'm I'm like,

Richard Hill [00:16:19]:
you know, I think, you know, absolutely brilliant. I think it that is quite the challenging bit. I think you hit on the on the head where having those conversations with yourself, having that reflection Yeah. Because yeah. Right. Well, this way, and this is happening.

Dan Temple [00:16:35]:
But I've run this business for 20 years and it's worked. Yeah. Yeah. The outcome bias Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:16:40]:
Yeah. And, you know, we do it this way and that's how we do it. Hang on a minute. You know, these guys have there's there's people with ideas and some really good ideas. So just having a breath,

Dan Temple [00:16:49]:
I had to think. I think, hang

Richard Hill [00:16:50]:
on a minute. We'll just you know? Don't shut everything down. You have a minute. I mean, I you know, people aren't gonna keep coming back to you with ideas if you're shutting them down, and then they're gonna feel disconnected, then they're gonna feel, you know, this is a place that I wanna be at and stay at. You know, I've seen that a lot. Yeah. You know, some great ideas, but then maybe that dominating character. Right.

Richard Hill [00:17:11]:
This is what I'm gonna do, guys. That's a good that's yeah. Yeah. But they're not really listening. Yeah. You know? So it's having that, I think, you know, to listen rather than be Right. Usually the quietest person in the room. I believe a lot of people say, oh, usually the smarter people in the room, and I am on that train completely because I know a lot of people like that.

Richard Hill [00:17:29]:
They're just super smart, but they pick their eComOne, and when they speak, I'll flip and listen because I don't think, yeah. They know what they're talking about. Yeah. But it can be, you know, as a manager, yeah, having that moment of reflection. So maybe if you're listening and thinking right, that next time when you're sitting with your team, you know, you're sitting there with with your marketing team, you know, wants to ideally, wants to be very collaborative. Not. And it's not necessarily those ideas that they're giving you. Some of them might not be great, but, obviously, how you then react to maybe maybe that idea that maybe isn't the ideal scenario.

Richard Hill [00:18:03]:
Obviously, you wanna encourage them.

Dan Temple [00:18:05]:
But how do you know it's not the ideal scenario? Just it didn't work. It's 12 months ago. Yeah. What, 2 years ago? Did them before it didn't work. So can I not be that one again? Oh, they're gonna they're really gonna engage again, aren't they? Why? Why didn't they work 12 months ago? What's changed? Yeah. Heraclitus was at the philosopher that said that the only constant in this world is change. And he also said that no man steps from the river twice. So what does it mean by that? The fact that when you put your foot in the river and then take it out, you can put it in 2 seconds, 2 minutes, 2 years later.

Dan Temple [00:18:29]:
The rivers change and so have you. That's the rate of change. Yeah. So actually it's understanding why. Why is it different now? What has changed? Yeah. Yeah. And it's very challenging. You talked about the fact that there are the pressures and people say, oh, yeah.

Dan Temple [00:18:42]:
You come in with your your idealistic views and all that. So no. I get it. I I can tell you I have worked with businesses. The previous role I did in the other world, we were delivering force into that was the the stuff, the pressure to deliver, to put 24 sets of boots on the ground of whether it's troops, whoever they are, to to get in and get that casualty, just 1 aircraft to 12 of us to get in to get that casualty out of the pressure

Richard Hill [00:19:05]:

Dan Temple [00:19:05]:
Is there. Of course. Yeah. So you've got that real time pressure. Yeah. But if that's all the time, that's when it becomes dangerous. If you treat people well enough, that actually when you need to dial up, they'll dial up without question, they'll they'll want to do that. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:19:20]:
If you've led them well enough, they'll they'll join you. You shouldn't need to tell them, we need to get this done. They'll just do it.

Richard Hill [00:19:25]:
I'm getting goosebumps down, to be honest. So genuine genuinely, it's just like that sort of treat people right. And I think that is sort of a it's a simple sort of formula for success, I think. I I genuinely believe treat people right. You know, whether you're in a war zone, and that sounds maybe the bizarrest sentence of the world. Treat people right, but, obviously, you you need a team and somebody's got to lead that team ultimately, but those people have got to want to be led or be part of that team. Yeah. And if they're not They're not engaged.

Richard Hill [00:19:54]:
They are engaged, then that's gonna not turn out too great. Yeah. And then in the in the business environment Yeah. People are churning, leaving, you can't retain your staff. They're not backing the the leader, the sales team, the marketing. Yeah. You know, it's all disjointed. There's chaos eCommerce.

Richard Hill [00:20:11]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In time, there's gonna be a failure. There's gonna be a you know, people are leaving, so you've got loads of tension, but ultimately, commercially, the businesses having a big, old, tough time.

Dan Temple [00:20:21]:
Yeah. And I think the key you just talked about there is that the different departments, but it's in time. And we focus so much on outcome, whether it's business. And everything we do is is outcome, or it worked really well. Because when we used to land, we'd always have a debrief. Whatever went, whatever went. We tend to focus on what went wrong. As as everything is things when we have a big project, if you guys have have a big project here, do you ever have a debrief, get together after? Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:20:40]:
Totally. Yeah? We talk about, probably most I would say is what went wrong. I'm making assumptions, my apologies, but Yeah. We'll step through it. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll we'll talk about, right, what went wrong. What went right? That went right.

Dan Temple [00:20:50]:
Brilliant. Okay. Do you ever go across why it went right? Was it by the grace of God? Was it a bit of luck? Was it external factors? Or was it stuff that you guys and girls did really well? Said, you know what? We nailed that. We smashed that. Why do we smash it? Well, actually because such and such did this, Brian was doing that, Henry was all over that, Carrie Anne was there. The guys, he goes, they they did it. Yeah. We focus on what went wrong too often.

Richard Hill [00:21:12]:
Yeah. And if we don't address It's still good to reflect on what went wrong and and and we obviously improve and learn from it. Yeah. But it's not all about that. It's then reflecting on, right, well, this 80% actually was really good, and these 3 guys did a brilliant job on this, so that's good. Maybe a challenge there. So remember, we need to work with that person, help them Yeah. Or that department or that thing, or actually change that, move that, implement a new, sort of check-in system so that doesn't happen again.

Richard Hill [00:21:40]:
Yeah. Put Ryan on that because he's really, detailed, and John who maybe, you know, maybe needs a little bit more support when we invest in that and look at the training and yeah. Yeah. Debrief it is, you know, I see a lot of firms not doing that. As for my experience, I've listened to, you know, the clients and podcast guests and, you know, quite often, you know, it's right. Move on to the next. You know, hang on a minute.

Dan Temple [00:22:02]:
That's the commercial pressure. We've done it.

Richard Hill [00:22:04]:
The churn then again, form. We're talking about staff churn. We're talking about client churn potentially or staff churn, you know, if we're not you know, why did this why did we, you know, why so we've let John go. Why did we why have we let him go? What what went wrong? Yeah. You know? I just wanted to introduce you very quickly to our sponsors, Prisync. Now Prisync is a competitive price tracking and monitoring software that can dynamically change a products prices on all sales channels. They work with brands such as Samsung, Sony, Suzuki to increase their online revenue. Now if you run Google Shopping, which I know a lot of you absolutely do, this software is absolutely key to accelerating profits.

Richard Hill [00:22:40]:
One of the reasons I recommend pricing to my clients is because you can find out your competitors' pricing and stock availability all in one simple to understand dashboard giving you a huge competitive advantage. Now if you have any inquiries and questions about this software or you're ready to get cracking, we have worked out a very, very special deal for our listeners where you can get a free month's trial and then 25% off the first 3 months. Head to econone.compricingandcompletetheinquiryform, and we will connect our listeners to the pricing team. Right. Let's head straight back to the episode. So hiring and retaining people Yeah. I think is on, you know, it's a big big part of my role, you know, as as as the owner and sort of founder and leader of this business. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:23:22]:
You know? And I think, especially through COVID, you know, massive change in working dynamics and, you know, working from home, a lot more challenges. You know? And I think, somebody, compared it. Have you seen the Marvel film? I can't remember which one it is now, but when he clicks his finger and half the people sort of disappear.

Dan Temple [00:23:42]:
Marvel Cole, we watched the Marvel films through lockdown actually because I there's nothing else to do with it. It was we were trying to homeschool a 4 year old, 5 year old. No. I don't remember if I was, but that's Somebody compared

Richard Hill [00:23:52]:
sort of, our industry to be a bit like that where it gets you know, obviously, it's very, you know, all on all online when you're working in a warehouse as as agencies. So a lot of people moved, you know, moved around, but Yeah. Ultimately retaining, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a huge factor, you know, and it's a huge it's a huge factor that cost to rehire or that we pay a recruitment firm, which is some crazy numbers potentially, you know, and, you know

Dan Temple [00:24:18]:
Am I right in the sort of annual average between sort of 12 to £15,000 per hire when

Richard Hill [00:24:22]:
you use recruitment? I know somebody that got a job recently Yeah. And the recruitment firm got 60 grand for placing that person. Wow. So that's just one

Dan Temple [00:24:32]:
No. Obviously, it just depends on the level that you're increasing. Yeah. But on average, even even just I wanna say a cold face level, but you're talking 1,000. Yeah. Yeah. And in today's climate, you can afford it.

Richard Hill [00:24:44]:
Yeah. So, obviously, retaining those people. So you're sitting in an interview, you know, as an owner, as I listen to the podcast, you're interviewing your new marketing manager, your new head of warehouse. Right. Now what are some of the things in terms of making sure you make a right the right decision? Now I I think you sort of instinctively instinctively No. But that sounds a little bit hairy, Faye. What would be some sort of structure to making and what sort of things you're looking out for in those interviews to make sure that those people are aligned? You know, you talked a little bit about, sort of your company values. You know? How important is that?

Dan Temple [00:25:19]:
I I think it's huge. I mean, again, having not done that, and then this has been my opinion based on limited experience and talked about a goodwill hunting effect and a bit of theory there. But for me, I think you touched on there was that instance, you'd know. Yeah. You know. I like to think I'm a reasonably good judge of character. You can tell people. When somebody's bullshitting Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:25:38]:
A little bit of scratch the surface, we do. Yeah. I do a I used to do a 4 to 5 hour ground check on somebody. So we do an 8 hour flying saute together and we do a full assessment. So it's a test? Yeah. It's exactly what it is. Yeah. In the air.

Dan Temple [00:25:50]:
But it's a test in another way of, like, testing it. It's, are you doing it right? But if not doing it right, why not? And are you If 10 people are, I was gonna say, well, if 10 people aren't doing it right, that's not you as an individual. That's a problem within the culture. What were you gonna say? Sorry.

Richard Hill [00:26:03]:
I was gonna say, if they're not doing it right, then how receptive are they to the feedback? Yeah. And if they're obviously maybe a little bit, confrontational Yeah. That's a big Oh, huge. Yeah. Yeah. Huge. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:26:15]:
But then it's understanding why though because it's it's getting into the why why they're not doing it right. Do they even are they even aware they're not doing it right? Because we we've seen it and you'll you'll we go off track slope, but it kinda ties in and we'll come back. But training schools says, oh, this is what we did. This is you get taught during the training school when you get in the real world. And that's how we got taught, but this is how we do it really. Yeah. Why is there differentiation between what's been taught Yeah. And then the work is seen versus work is done, or the expectation is you as the boss or the leader, the owner would be expecting, and the output is there.

Dan Temple [00:26:46]:
So, therefore, what's actually happening? But going back to that point is when you scratch a surface, and when I did the flying check, but also did the ground cap ground categorization, check of knowledge, we could spend 4, 5 hours going through documents and documents. It's a check of their basic knowledge. They need it. The stuff that we need straight off the way, can they grasp it? Because when you're in an airborne environment, a 100 60 miles an hour, 80 feet, you can't be thinking Yeah. More about it. Come and assist. Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:27:10]:
Yeah. You don't you can't Google it.

Dan Temple [00:27:11]:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I'm going back to days of paper maps. We used to fly with helium helicopters. We'll save the maps until 2012. They'd have a big globe. And you go, like, by the time you're trying to scrunch it all together, it's a quarter mil map.

Dan Temple [00:27:21]:

Richard Hill [00:27:22]:

Dan Temple [00:27:22]:
But you can tell when you when somebody asks a question, scratch the surface. So what would you understand by that then? Because parrot style, you tell me, okay, Dan. So you're interviewing me. So tell me about the the eCom one company values. And I can power them to you because I've read on the website. What do they mean to you then? Yeah. Right. And that that key question for me, when I ask questions, if I say to you like in a group, say, right, what does leadership mean? Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:27:45]:
People don't want to answer that question Yeah. Because there's a fear of, I don't look silly in front of my peers, I don't even have the wrong answer. But I always phrase it as what does something mean to you? Because it gives them that opportunity to

Richard Hill [00:27:57]:
So go ahead and a little bit, ask a question, but then maybe another question Yeah. Question within their response. Yeah. And that's it. Oh, that's interesting. So out of our values, which one is the one that really resonated with you? Oh, they can't just read that off. They gotta think. There you go.

Richard Hill [00:28:11]:
Why why does

Dan Temple [00:28:11]:
that resonate with you? And some people don't like the word why, you can use, so what is it about it? You get why why? Why is it alright? It's a question. Why? And I was just to be careful of the word why and how. But, yeah, so what is it about that value then Yeah. That resonates so much with you? And that for me would be that you'd check whether people have done the research. If they want this job, they've done the research. They've looked at this is one thing that's changed quite a lot

Richard Hill [00:28:34]:
over the last years of hiring. So we've we've layered in, you know, some more sort of deeper questions. You've got a you've got a, you know, I I do believe that sort of connection and, oh yeah, you know, obviously this is relevant experience, but experience isn't everything. It always depends on the role. Yeah. You've got that, test potentially. Obviously obviously, depending on the type of business, you know, that a sort of practical test, give them a scenario, case study to talk through. So you've made the hire, you know, you you yep.

Richard Hill [00:29:07]:
Guys, we've got this guy. He's insane.

Dan Temple [00:29:10]:
Yep. Gonna smash it.

Richard Hill [00:29:11]:
Starts on Monday, you know, bang. He starts on Monday, you know, and you've sold him the dream as the business owner. We know we're this. This is our company values are on the wall. It's the best place in the world. You're part of the team. You know, that that sounds terrible, but, you know, they've cut but ultimately, they've started in the wrong. Now how key and I think it's a bit of a loaded question, but how key is that first sort of 3 to 6 months in that role? And what sort of things as a business owner should you be doing to ensure that there's a successful onboarding? I think, yeah.

Richard Hill [00:29:44]:
It's, I mean, where do you start really? Because if you need to, me, if I'll be saying, if you need to

Dan Temple [00:29:52]:
do something, that says more about the company. Do you know what I mean? If it's natural, if it's real Yeah. If your company culture is such that people are engaged Yeah. Then that individual will hopefully fit in. Give them the support. Yeah. Give them if they're that culture whereby if they're not sure, do they have the confidence and the, I wanna say wherewithal, that's not that's not the right word. But are they comfortable in saying, do you know what? Like, I don't understand.

Dan Temple [00:30:18]:
Yeah. Because if you've got Bob from accounts who's teaching Martin. He's a newbie. Martin's got all the skills on paper. But actually when he comes in, because Bob was taught in a particular way, he's now teaching Martin this way. Yeah. Well, actually, and this this goes back to a generational bit. Well, what worked for him because Bob got taught by Sarah and Sarah got taught by I said, you're talking 10, 20 years experience.

Dan Temple [00:30:42]:
It's the Peter principle is a great example, eCom out so shortly. But give make sure people feel valued, feel supported. That they're learning. It's a learning curve, and it's it's quite unnerving for them. You know, remember your first job, I mean, obviously, you've been in this company, but you imagine every new employee you get on board here. I put donuts. Like, do you? I I used to put jam in donuts. That was my first job.

Dan Temple [00:31:01]:
Used to. What happened, Alice? I No. You used to rise. Sorry. I thought you put donuts on the table to welcome employees. I thought, oh, can I have a job, please? Then the donuts run out. Why did the donuts run out?

Richard Hill [00:31:11]:
Student. I had a job in Morrison's where I would the doughnuts would come off the doughnut machine and I would get them, put them into the jam machine and fill them with doughnuts. That was a job I actually had.

Dan Temple [00:31:21]:
Well, that's what we like, Ash. I'm sure if we're gonna add that. Yeah. I'll leave it in there. No. That'd decide for that. But, it's yeah. If if you've gotta have and to almost as force that culture, if they're confident enough straight away to say, right.

Dan Temple [00:31:33]:
Yeah. Do you know what? I'm I'm not sure about this. Yeah. Because whilst they might have it on paper, I've got loads of qualifications on my CV if you want it. There's loads of stuff

Richard Hill [00:31:41]:
that I've

Dan Temple [00:31:41]:
done over the years and courses. He asked me scrum, lean, agile, I've been talking about these these frameworks and lean 6 Sigma, all the good stuff. Yeah. Well, they're wonderful, but every model is wrong. I tell you that every model is wrong, but some are useful. I can't remember who's a quote that was with the neighbor. I think that's brilliant because all the theories and these frameworks, processes, not one fits. But the point being is you might have the technical skills, but if you don't have the nontechnical skills, and that's what people call soft skills.

Dan Temple [00:32:06]:
Yeah. I personally don't like that term because, again, it just engenders that negative view. Yeah. A little bit soft and fluffy. Well, technical skills are the technical skills that your guys and girls have working that code in. Yeah. The nontechnical skills is just looking out for each other, supporting each other. The people base more.

Dan Temple [00:32:20]:
That's exactly it. And if you don't if your people don't have those technical skills to support that, I won't say newbie, but that new employee, that new starter in the 1st 3, 6 months, Gen Z now, they're quiet, but you know what? This is not the company that I thought it was. Gone. They'll move. They don't have as many ties. Yeah. And you'd argue back in sort of the seventies, eighties, early nineties maybe, the way was people could buy a house on 3 times their salary. They could completely buy a house on 3.

Richard Hill [00:32:49]:
Sounds like a dream.

Dan Temple [00:32:49]:
I know, doesn't it? Hey. I mean, just goodness. Yeah. I I wish. But, I mean, my parents did. My parents bought the house in the late eighties Yeah. On their salary. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:32:58]:
And it was mathematically eCom, they could do that, the standard 2 children. We had 3. I was a proper middle child. And she say, I was a feral second child to book out the problem middle child. And they would tell me that. You know what I mean? But the the point being there is they'll move now. Gen zed are quite happy to move on. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:33:13]:
That's not a bad thing. Yeah. I personally think I think it's a really good thing, and that's a wake up for businesses. But we tend to blame our and I see we, the elder generation, so you and I, they were both what we call experienced gen x's, as we call ourselves. But if they wake up, it's all, we don't blame gen zed. Let's not stereotype everyone. They ask lots and lots of questions. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:33:34]:
They're asking so many questions. Yeah. Because actually, they're keen just as you and I were when we were younger. Yeah. We probably wanted to ask questions, but it wasn't the culture, it wasn't the environment, it wasn't the thought to ask the question.

Richard Hill [00:33:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I, we we have a sort of thing at work in the business. Sorry. You know, more questions, you know, the better. And I I think that's a I think we're I think that's a really good point because when I'm hiring people and we've hired them and when they start asking lots of questions, I think, yeah, we've got a good one here. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:34:02]:
Because they're not afraid. Like, they're they're inquisitive, they're not sure, they're not they're not stuck or blocked, or maybe, you know, maybe they are, but they wanna get through. Yeah. And we have a we use tech to, you know, to we use Slack. Yep. Slack, shows us, you know, we run activity reports on Slack, you know, on different projects to see, you know, the the the comms in the projects or things like that. I pulled a report the other week, and it was just quite amusing because one of our newer team has sent sort of twice as many messages as anybody else. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:34:32]:
And I had a chat with her about it. It's because she wants to get moved through and wants to, but I know she's inquisitive and understand everything about the different things she's working on are quite abroad. Yep. Working in the sales and new business side of the business. You know, we sell sort of 4 or 5 different things. All those things have their own in intricacies. There's hundreds of different sort of understandings that she wants to work on. And I think, do you know what? Good on you, girl, because that is like she's like, do do do do.

Richard Hill [00:34:58]:
And and we do a, a company a fund company awards at the end of the year. And one of them was, can I ask a question? You know, who asked the most questions? And we make a good thing of it, but in a in a light heart, and we think it's taken, like, hardly.

Dan Temple [00:35:10]:
Yeah. You know, and we encourage, you know. I know he's gonna see. That's an awkward and and

Richard Hill [00:35:14]:
I mean, you were at one of our events, and I think I'm not sure. I I usually start most of our events. Obviously, we run a lot of events here at the agency and around the podcast, but, you know, we encourage questions, you know, and we appreciate different people have got different understandings. We were talking about this, you know, before we came on camera. Yeah. Some people are starting out on a journey Yep. But they could be an absolute fantastic hire

Dan Temple [00:35:36]:

Richard Hill [00:35:36]:
But they don't know the technicalities of Bob or whoever needs to teach them Yeah. But then going back to that piece, Bob might not have been shown how to teach and learn and have the patience. So there's quite a lot of moving parts there, isn't it? Huge. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:35:50]:
Yeah. I think that's one of the big things as well. He says Cobalt's Human Solutions is is the company is because the humans are the solution. People talk about humans. Humans are the problem. And I shouldn't be careful. He joked, Homer Simpson said alcohol is the cause and the solution to all of life's problem. But I I think humans, we are the cause and the solution.

Dan Temple [00:36:07]:
Because people talk about human error, things go wrong, it's always human error. Well that's not the the cause, that's the start of the investigation. Right? Yeah. Why did that human make that mistake? And everything's a wire. I'm toying with the the TikTok of the 40 +2 year old, because my wife's license when we now we've got 2 boys, we've got an 8 year old and a 2 year old. Our 8 year old was great. He asked lots of questions, which always encouraged him. He still does.

Dan Temple [00:36:30]:
And but he'd explain stuff to him and he'd get it. He'd be like, okay. That's fine. But he was more like 2 or 3. Whereas, Tiger, our youngest, who says Irish names is y y. And he is just y y y. And I hadn't experienced that with the first one. Had we known that, then we wouldn't have had a second child with it.

Dan Temple [00:36:46]:
Many reasons, I'm not joking. Anyways, because he's got loads of long blonde hair, clearly a little bit jealous. But he asked why, why, why, why, why? And if we don't encourage that, the fact that your employee, she was comfortable asking Yeah. Is great. So then I I'd dig in there. We talk about that chunking. Yeah. Right? So why is she asking lots of questions? Because she wants to learn what that's good.

Dan Temple [00:37:05]:
Why is she not knowing? Is it because of a lack of experience? Or you can't let them out of there? Or is it the training? It says Is it the training? Yeah. Are we not providing the correct training?

Richard Hill [00:37:14]:
We can document more. We can alright. Next is, so okay. We've learned from that, actually. There was sort of 10 or 15 things that we can easily document with Yeah. Various tech or, you know, simply record a with all the different tools we have and and document those things.

Dan Temple [00:37:28]:
Yeah. She's asking these questions that actually we say, well, we've got this process in place. So what why has she not learned from that process? Is it the process of the problem? Is it how she was taught? Is it her understanding? Yeah. You give somebody a book, right off you go and read that. Online learning, click, click, click. Yeah. It's it. Done.

Dan Temple [00:37:42]:
Move on. Does it work? Does it engage? How? And it and why did you did you did the 5 whys to turn why? When you get something, you ask another why and you ask another why, and it's that that deeper level

Richard Hill [00:37:52]:
you keep going down. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:37:53]:
But again, why, why, why? You gotta be careful how

Richard Hill [00:37:56]:
you You gotta do it in a nicer way. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:37:58]:
Rounding back to what you said the original question was, how do you say, if people aren't comfortable, now they're generation, they'll move on. Yeah. And I think it's really, really good because it is a wake up call Yeah. For how we lead, how we look after our people. Because it

Richard Hill [00:38:12]:
Yeah. No. I think that's, you know, a huge takeaway, you know. And you've and you're obviously still with us now because you're hearing me say this, but, you know, end of the day, you know, retaining people and making and being nice to people. I think, you know, it's simplified, but it can you can get so wrapped up in that commercial and, you know, and of course, there's got to be you know, we've got to have a, you know, a strong element of, success in a business Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:38:40]:
But it doesn't mean we can't do it No. You know, in a nice way. And I think, you know, I've I've run businesses for 25 years, and so the things I've witnessed. Yeah. You know, I think, jeez, did that really happen? Did did that did those did we really hire those people? Did we really make those mistakes? Did those really people and and and me as well, you know, as a leader. Yeah. You know, I think I'm maybe a lot of our listeners as as young leaders, you know, I would implore you to sort of invest time in Yeah. You know, in in people like Dan and and and your sort of leadership team and that reflection and and because to build a business, you can't do it on your own.

Richard Hill [00:39:12]:
I just don't believe you can. You can get you can do it okay, you know, you know, there's some caveats to that. And if you get lucky with crypto 1 week or whatever, but that's, you know, BS.

Dan Temple [00:39:21]:
See that one contract. Come on, just ring me. But also

Richard Hill [00:39:23]:
But ultimately, you know you know, I think I had 40 people in my last business, you know, and, you know, and it's those people piece. The people piece Yeah. Is the difference between, you know, a maybe a lifestyle business and then a really, really successful business, you know, and and nailing those, so investing in some of the things we've talked about. So I think, that we talked about maybe managers that might be struggling. Yeah. You know? And but, ultimately, when businesses business is tough, you know, we've gone through maybe not quite a recession last year. It depends who's in whose data you believe.

Dan Temple [00:39:59]:
CSC is about to drop on and they're saying at the moment, the next set, if we if we are below, we're not growth. Officially, 2 quarters, we're in recession.

Richard Hill [00:40:07]:
And I remember, you know, 2008, 2009, around that period, I had a business very, very, very, very challenging times, you know, most challenging times in my sort of business owner career. You know, what would you say, about that in terms of, okay, this year potentially, you know, I'm right to remain positive on the podcast, you know, I'm Yeah. I'm not a fan of telling the news on, let alone reading a newspaper, if I'm honest. It's just my who I am and I'm with you. My circle is very positive and then some people might not like that, but that's who I am and that's how I am and I keep I

Dan Temple [00:40:41]:
think you're quite realistic with it. Having the conversations we've had, I'm quite positive and I try and be that. Yeah. People are, oh, it's positivity and it's toxic. But there's no, it's not, it's realistic. Yep. Be realistic. You can be real, but obviously you don't have

Richard Hill [00:40:52]:
to follow that negative narrative once you're saying. So how can business owners sort of empower and sort of fire up their team to keep pushing through, maybe a a challenging time?

Dan Temple [00:41:02]:
Yeah. I so I was called in, I did a video last year, on LinkedIn, and I talk about perspective. And I had a big white sheet with the a 2, the flip chart, and I had a little dot. I said, right, what do you see? So people see the dot. They don't see all around it. They don't see all the good and the positivity around. We tend to focus on the the potentially negative bit in the middle. What is the problem potentially? And it's just about higher, and I'll tell you about Jack and Jill and Bill and Ben in a second.

Dan Temple [00:41:26]:
Remind me if I don't. But the point is it's it's where we look at it. So a company saw this, a sales director, he's got about 70, 80 people under him. He's part of a multimillion pound company, production company, management and manufacturer, and they asked me to come in and have a chat with the sales teams. Now they're doing very well. They did very well last year. They missed their target by 2%, which actually equates to less than 2 just under £2,000,000 while they do the math. So it's just barely big.

Dan Temple [00:41:51]:
He said the team performed really, really well, but how do we just add a little bit extra? That marginal gain, as Matthew said, we'll talk about those little bits because they're incremental. So when it not being negative, what is it? And it's just finding out where the team's values are. What is it the teams what motivates them? People aren't always extremely motivated by money and finances. Yeah. That's your basic level. If you pay people enough, it's a little bit more. So what intrinsically motivates people? The common aim goes back to that bit of being honest with the aim. If everyone's put in the same direction, they know what the the outcome, what they want to achieve.

Dan Temple [00:42:24]:
Yeah. It's not about focusing on the outcome. Have an eye on that. How you get to that, and how you get to that is through your roles and responsibilities. Does everyone know what they're doing? Who's responsible? Who's accountable? Then you look at the process and procedures. Are they in place? They are correct. Are they fit for purpose? Are people being supported? If the system's not working, you're failing. You're already pushing it.

Dan Temple [00:42:47]:
It's causing frustration. People then get frustrated. People just ignore. They lash whatever they argue. And then fast the last bit is the people themselves. You focus on those. The human is the solution. I talk about it.

Dan Temple [00:42:59]:
And what we do is we go in and we help businesses get the solutions out of their people. Yeah. Now it might not be a problem looking ahead. Any business hose or hoe hoe hoe hoe hoe excuse me, owner, bit of horizon scanning and looking ahead and see what's forecasting. You can't see everything. Things don't come from left field. And it's, oh, where did that come from? Well, maybe Putin invading. Don't know.

Dan Temple [00:43:20]:
Discuss. Somebody knew somewhere, but in the rest of the world, the impact. But as soon as it happened, if you're in that business, you can see things. Yeah. Another one I talk about accountability, culpability, I talk about identification and acknowledgment. We can identify. We can see things. Now what it touched.

Dan Temple [00:43:36]:
We just put in the

Richard Hill [00:43:37]:

Dan Temple [00:43:38]:
So if we open that, we open that box Yeah. Shit's gonna gap. And so we'll just we'll just leave it. Oh, it's not impacting, that's good. Yeah. So to answer to your question is is sort of looking at the team. Is everything is everyone aligned? Everyone know what they're doing? Does everyone know what they're doing? Yeah. Does everyone know how they're doing it? Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:43:56]:
And is everyone happy and supported and motivated to do it? And if you keep those four key elements within, you'll you'll you'll get through. Are they understanding and have an open environment of psychology safe for this right? This is the challenge, this is what ahead, what thoughts have we got. Yeah. The person who never speaks, they just kinda say, what about this? Yeah. Brilliant.

Richard Hill [00:44:18]:
I think that comes from ultimately a strong lead strong leader. Yep. You know? And and imparting that vision to the team. So, you know, sometimes there may well be, you know, tough conversations to have when things maybe aren't going right, you know, and been open, honest. Find out why. Getting buy in, you know, and saying, look, guys. You know, it's no secret that we lost the order last month and the sales on x is down, and we've got 300 grand sat in the warehouse of such and such, but there's a new model out. And what we need to do, we're gonna figure this out.

Richard Hill [00:44:51]:
Yeah. You know? So, you know, any ideas are good ideas, you know, you really want us to, as a team

Dan Temple [00:44:57]:
Yeah. You know, how we go

Richard Hill [00:44:58]:
get in the key management or depending on the, obviously, on the size of the business, it might be all coming together or, you know, and working together, getting that buy in, showing as a leader Yeah. Your sort of passion and determination to get through this time. Yeah. You know, we're not alone. It's no secret. Turn the TV on. Things are x y zed. We'll turn the TV off and Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:45:18]:
Just But, you know, and, you know, definitely, you know, 20 up 20 years in and, yeah, of course, there's a lot of shit

Dan Temple [00:45:26]:
I've dealt with. There is. I imagine. Yeah. I can imagine. Especially the digital changes. When you look at the digital Yeah. Revolution that we've gone through and accelerated by COVID and other factors.

Dan Temple [00:45:38]:
Yeah. I think the the key with that is you talk about it's just just again, it's that why. Find out the why. If you've lost the order and a 300 grand in there, doing it right, You we've lost this order. We've got this in there.

Richard Hill [00:45:49]:
Yeah. What do we do about it?

Dan Temple [00:45:50]:
And people are gonna really engage. I think, oh, I've got this idea. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. That. But actually it's okay. Right? We've lost the order. Okay? So let's look at let's dive at what.

Dan Temple [00:45:59]:
Not why, not who. Yeah. And let's look at what happened. Okay? Yeah. Yeah. What can we do within? And if people are covering their tracks Yeah. That in itself is something that, again, when you dig down that little deeper than x y Yeah. Why are they covering their tracks? Why are they not comfortable of being responsible, accountable rather than thinking they're culpable? Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:46:15]:
Yeah. There's a fear that there's gonna be an unjust consequence. Yeah. Well, you lost the order, 300 it's cost us, so we're gonna sack you, off you go. Okay. You might have saved yourself 30 grand salary, but actually what that individual brings to the business and tacit knowledge and ideas and thoughts and some more for the team, you probably just lost. And actually they could have had the solution. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:46:34]:
So rather than blaming somebody, look at the process. Who is it there? Was it working? Okay? And then that that's that's gonna be key is finding out why, what.

Richard Hill [00:46:44]:
And I think that thing where, you know, what this what if this will will look at that. And there's a there's a book I read called obstacle is the way. Right. Ultimately, you know, what if let's get let's get that thing. Yeah. Let's bring it over here. Let's put it on the table Yeah. And let's get our collective minds right.

Richard Hill [00:47:01]:
Okay. Now the trajectory at the moment is actually pretty poor. Well, that's but we're not gonna think about it. I know we are. We're gonna grab that. If whether that's our forecast

Dan Temple [00:47:11]:
Our elephant is there, the winking ass in the corner.

Richard Hill [00:47:13]:
Yeah. 4 months, we've got no money left. Yeah. We got no cash left. We got a warehouse full of stock. We're gonna have 400 grand due. We're fucked, you know. So hang on a minute.

Richard Hill [00:47:22]:
Let's grab it, stick it on the table. Let's figure it out. What we're gonna do Yeah. What we're gonna do is ultimately, you know, there's terms. Can we renegotiate terms? We have a couple of suppliers Yeah. And fix that short term cash flow. Yeah. You know, we've dealt with these guys for 20 years, 10 years.

Richard Hill [00:47:38]:
They know we're good payers, but if we just have an honest conversation maybe with a couple of suppliers that we're close to or that ones that we feel we can Yeah. Or a couple of team members where we need to do x y zed or we, you know, we know that that particular line is a challenge and there's $300 set. What are we gonna do to get rid of it? Let's get everybody on it. We can't just give it away. We gotta we gotta pay for it. Yeah. Okay. So Jack and Jill, Bill and Ben.

Dan Temple [00:48:02]:
Yeah. What's that all about? People who just asked us to tell a story about so and it comes down to team dynamics and something you mentioned earlier on about when things are lean, when the when the team's working, and if they're not maybe working as asking them why. Mhmm. Very often you you find, if you're in a busy, you've got a team of 10, but you've only got 6 for whatever reason, then it's military's and public sector is a great example of. We focus on the 4 that we haven't got as opposed to 6 we have got. And we spend all our time looking at those 4 people that we haven't got there. Well, actually let's focus on the 6 we have, look after these 6, and in the background we work on that 4. We look at why we haven't got the 4, why people leaving.

Dan Temple [00:48:37]:
Is it a culture thing? But Jack and Jill, Bill and Ben, if you've got a team of 5 or 6, let's say it's a team of 5, regardless of that's a team compliment that you've got. If you go less than that, you're screwed. So say you've got 5, whatever. You got Jack and Jill, they're awesome. They're amazing. They do everything. You know that when things go wrong, you can give it to Jack and Jill, you can give it and then it will get done. You've got Brian, who's middle of the road, never going to set the world alight.

Dan Temple [00:49:00]:
I don't mean in an awesome way. They're just they're steady, they're good, they're trustworthy. And then you got Bill and Ben, and you wonder how they put their socks on every day. You wonder how they get to to work, let alone how they've got through school. You've hired them. Hired them the recruitment agency, you blame it, whatever. But they're just not performing. So if you like the problem children, you talked about like the bell curve.

Dan Temple [00:49:19]:
Yeah. The problem the 80% is fine, but the 10% at the top and the bottom Yep. Don't think about the 10% at the top and the under both performers, underperformers. And then you say, what happens is you've got Jack and Jill. They're burning out because shit's getting real. Things are business. The corporate is world is. So the top the dug at the top.

Dan Temple [00:49:37]:
They yeah. They are your top ten. All of the stuff you need, all the projects, you've given it to them. What's gonna happen to them? They're gonna burn out. So when you lose Jack, you're left with Jill. Jill's picking up the slack. She's already on the edge of a tether. You've got Brian who's just steady along the road over there, but you're spending your time with Bill and Ben because you're doing that.

Dan Temple [00:49:57]:
So there's your problem. You're already depleting your you Yeah. I mean, you should have had that. Yeah. So we talk about it. I say, right. Get Jack and Jill to work with Bill and Ben. It's very simplistic.

Dan Temple [00:50:05]:
Get it simple, might be not be easy. Top why not work with this is it. So you're empowering these, so they feel comfortable. They feel like they're being empowered. Jack and Jill are achieving, and then and then you work with Brian. Mhmm. So the idea everyone is working with each other, everyone's in power, and you're getting their team dynamics. Leveling up.

Dan Temple [00:50:23]:
And this is it. You're leveling up in a way. Yeah. Now again, it goes back to when there are times where you need Jack and Jill to step up and they will do. But if they're always doing it, that's poor management. Yeah. We're not managing our teams effectively. We're not leading our teams effectively.

Dan Temple [00:50:37]:
We're not allocating the right time to the right people. So that's what I mean by Jack and Jill, Bill and Ben, is is how you lead that team, how you get that. Yeah. No. I love that. I think, you

Richard Hill [00:50:49]:
know, and that's where, you know, somebody else may be struggling. It obviously is getting that support so then they feel that they know their the company's invested in them and somebody within the business is helping them and getting that support. Obviously, they're more likely to stay with the business and be a be a be an asset, you know, and, you know, that's it's so easy to go, right, get rid of those people, you know, but hang on a minute. Just hang on a minute. He's gonna keep doing that?

Dan Temple [00:51:14]:
Ask you to keep doing this. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:51:15]:
Keep doing that. It wants to work there,

Dan Temple [00:51:16]:
You know? Ask a question of complaints. Absolutely.

Richard Hill [00:51:18]:
Oh, how why don't they get rid of John?

Dan Temple [00:51:19]:
Oh, he's made a mistake on such a well, we can sort that out. My wife's recently take over as assistant head of one of the schools in Lincoln City, one of the special education in the school, and she was up against 7 other candidates for assistant head. My wife was not on the leadership team, but she went in and all the candidates went in. And part of the interview was to look at, right, how are you gonna make effect positive change over the next 3 to 4 years? So a lot of them, I believe there's conversations about the school improvement plan, what the school vision strategy of that. So Paula went in and we had this conversation because of my leadership background, banging on about it again. Here he goes. So what's the key element? What is the key driver for your business? It's your people. The shareholders and all that stuff, that's the output.

Dan Temple [00:52:00]:
That's if you don't focus on your people, the customer's not always right, your employees are always right. If you don't look after your employees, they're gonna deliver it. Yeah. Shit. Well, that's well, they're just not gonna deliver because they're gonna go. Yeah. She went in focusing on the people. Right? How are we gonna go? Talking about number of staff.

Dan Temple [00:52:16]:
People if you're advertising for roles, people aren't applying. Why are people not applying? Because your staff aren't going out there. The ministry is a great example. Bang on all of that again. But if people aren't going down the pub when they go home at weekend and telling their mates about what a cracking job, and they love their job, they get to do this, we do that, we go away. Comrade, we all that stuff supported. The learning, all that sort of stuff. Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:52:38]:
If they go down and tell me how shit it is and how they get taught to like this, this is that and that.

Richard Hill [00:52:42]:
Which is half the people down the pub.

Dan Temple [00:52:44]:
Well, this is it. No. This is it. Everything's been to the

Richard Hill [00:52:46]:
tour. No. Yeah. No. Bloody John again.

Dan Temple [00:52:48]:
Oh, yeah. This guy and I went to the boss and he was a bit of a dick, and he just shot me down. And I come with ideas in the meetings,

Richard Hill [00:52:54]:
and, honestly is a never input.

Dan Temple [00:52:56]:
Yeah. It was just, so I'm gonna leave and, no. Your mates my own business shit. I used to work. There you go. So there's your culture. But if you've got people queuing up out your door to come and work for your organization, there's your indicator. Leading lagging indicates where we're gonna look at.

Dan Temple [00:53:09]:
There were lots of leading indicators. We choose not to look at them because we identify, we acknowledge, we handle this box, all the good stuff, these analogies. So David Brent there is all these analogies. Yeah. We do. But that that for me is a standout there.

Richard Hill [00:53:21]:
So last couple of questions, Dan. I've I've loved our chat. So I think we could do a 3 hour Bob Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:53:27]:
Episode. Keep me on track. Good luck with that one. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:53:30]:
We're gonna get Dan involved with a lot more of our events. I can see I can see you. Yeah. I'd love to. I'm loving this chat. I think it's just so important, guys, because, you know, as as leaders, business owners listening to this, you know, your people piece. People first. Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:53:43]:
You know, you're it's maybe so busy thinking about, you know, hitting whether it's a 100 or a 1000 consignments a day and the the the orders and the cash and the da da da da da. But without those people, you know, you don't got anything.

Dan Temple [00:53:54]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So Sleepovers within your business. They lie within you. They lie within your people. So, you know, we're we're I love the analogy of Jack

Richard Hill [00:54:01]:
and Jill and Bill and Ben. Yeah. Yeah. But but ultimately Like any character, by

Dan Temple [00:54:05]:
the way, anyone you're just easy for me to remember. No.

Richard Hill [00:54:06]:
I I like it. But what what sort of springs to mind is ultimately, okay, we're we're gonna support, you know, certain people within the team that need that need support. But when it comes to maybe more of the sort of mental health side of things, where people, you know, it's not not maybe a a case they don't they can't do the the spreadsheet thing and the the the technical and the physical thing. They're just really having a challenging time for whether, you know, there's obviously all that's quite a broad mental health, you know, is a is a very broad sort of topic, but ultimately, you know, sometimes people are just having a tough time. Yeah. You know? And as a a leader stroke manager of that person, you know, how what advice would you give to them about trying to help or what maybe they could do to try and help someone that's really struggling with their mental health? Yeah. I I think the first one is

Dan Temple [00:54:54]:
is just before you try and do anything, is just set the environment that they feel comfortable enough to say they're struggling. Because if if if the first time if they don't come to you and say, look, Rob or Dan, I'm just I'm struggling. It's like a case of Rob or that we haven't set that environment in the first place. Yeah. If it's recognized from the lagging indicator, the fact that the performance is dipping, there's things going on, you'll notice that because you know your team really well, that everyone or somebody says to you, look, I'm a bit concerned about Mike. He's just he doesn't seem to be on his game or he just doesn't seem himself. Yeah. Knowing your team is key first.

Dan Temple [00:55:28]:
That's the leadership relevant. Yeah. For anything, know your team and make sure that they know that you trust them and they feel they can trust you. If you haven't got that environment, first off, key. However, something's come up now, somebody has highlighted to you in one form or another. First thing to do is acknowledge them and just say, well done. Thank you. Having that confidence to say comes.

Richard Hill [00:55:48]:
For yeah. To be uncomfortable. To be able to talk

Dan Temple [00:55:51]:
to me about that. We wanna help and we yeah. But assuming they have to, because if somebody else has come to you Yeah. You need to be able to go and have a chat. Even if you can't, again, go back to that mirror. Mhmm. Yeah. If there's a consistent trend, it's not everyone else in the team that's the problem.

Dan Temple [00:56:04]:
You know what I mean? So, again, it's first off, acknowledge and just thank them and say, you know, well done. And then just chat to them about it. Don't try and solve it. Have you tried mindfulness? Yeah. Yeah. Why? Yeah. I've tried everything. I don't know.

Dan Temple [00:56:17]:
But you know, maybe I've been flipping it's like my worst expression I ever hear is, yeah, I know what you're going through. Yeah. So what are you mean?

Richard Hill [00:56:23]:
Oh, yeah. And they'll talk about them. Yeah. But hang on a minute.

Dan Temple [00:56:26]:
Yeah. Are you are you me? You and I can go out here now and we can witness the worst accident. Somebody had come down Silver Street or whatever. We could see the same thing. Afterwards, I wouldn't say to you, yeah, I know what you're going through because I saw the same thing. With different people, we respond in different ways as we actually experiences for our lives. This is it. Triggers.

Dan Temple [00:56:44]:
Exactly. Yep. Yeah? You'd expect me to be on the floor crying myself with PTSD. People would joke about it. I shouldn't but that the expectation, the stereotypical, whatever the soaps hate soap. There you go. Sometimes I've seen years ago, there was a character on one of them and he had PTSD. And within 6 months, he was all fixed and he's never spoken about again.

Dan Temple [00:57:03]:
Now that's a soap jam I get. But the point being is when you see the same things, we are all different. So actually just acknowledge them and listen to them. You said earlier on, listen, listen. Absolute key. Listen. Listen. And then listen some more.

Dan Temple [00:57:16]:
Ask your questions based on what they say. Maybe not the words they say, but maybe what they're talking about. Try and extrapolate. Listen to what they're saying. How are you feeling? What is it okay? Can I ask you? Be polite. Don't be interrogative. But be just say, look. What can I do to support? And then look at the options that are available.

Dan Temple [00:57:36]:
Signpost. Yeah. Give them that support and just make sure that they are comfortable that they can tell you when it's going wrong. And then we we talked about it on about Gen zed and, oh, Gen zed. So woke us and snowflake and all. Well, actually, they they're just a bit more open.

Richard Hill [00:57:51]:
Yeah. Totally, isn't it? Yeah.

Dan Temple [00:57:53]:
And that they are a bit more open. Back in the day, you and I imagine our our dads, when I've been to my dad's dad and go, I should Man, shut up. Whatever. So We're a bit more Yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm just sort

Richard Hill [00:58:04]:
of flashing back to, you know, my first business 25 years ago. I think I started my first business and the the things, you know, that you know, the way that we dealt with certain situations. You know? I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of it, but I would say, wow. You know? Gosh. You know? It's just so not acceptable.

Dan Temple [00:58:20]:
You know that. But the times have changed, haven't they? Yeah.

Richard Hill [00:58:22]:
And I think it's it's probably just been able to to talk about things. Where I say sort of, oh, we're gonna do this, and we talk about, come on, just get on with it, you know, that sort of mentality. I think, yeah, you you just can't be like that, you know, I'm so determined to sort of, sort of to, to preach that in my business, to preach that on the podcast, and, you know, look after your people, make sure everyone's okay, but of course, everyone somebody's gonna have something going on in their lives, whether that's, you know, all sorts of different things. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And and we and we see it. So it's having that environment in your business where they feel they can talk about it, which is the first thing.

Richard Hill [00:59:03]:
That's a massive, massive, massive step for an individual to have a conversation in a work environment about something that's very, very, very, very personal to them. Yeah. So they'll have that conversation, but then as you as a manager, owner, somebody in that business to hopefully have the skills, that's whether, you know, more businesses definitely need to Yeah. Sort of invest in that mental health training, and that's quite a label. But and, you know, we could talk about that maybe on a second half. So but well, Dan, it's been an absolute flipping pleasure.

Dan Temple [00:59:32]:
Brilliant. No. Thank you. It's been, I've enjoyed it. I like

Richard Hill [00:59:34]:
to finish every episode, right, with a book recommendation, Deb, okay, to recommend to our listeners.

Dan Temple [00:59:40]:
So I heard about this, and I I was gonna be cheeky and ask for 2 recommendations. No. I mean, one. What I'll do is I'll give you a recommendation, and then I'd I'd like to read you a passage from one of my favorite books, if I may. Just a few lines. The book recommendation I would say is a book called The Starfish and the Spider by Rob Beckstrom and Ori Brafman. So, you're aware that octopuses, they they can actually, say we get their own leg. They can chop their own leg off in a time of need or stuff or if somebody pulls up like chops in the if they get attacked, they can, separate their leg.

Dan Temple [01:00:10]:
And that leg will well, they would regenerate another leg. And the reason being is a safety thing there, but there's also a breed of starfish that actually, when you chop that leg of that starfish, that leg will regenerate into another starfish, and the starfish will have its own leg. Exactly. So you end up with this. But then the spider so think about this in the business analogy. A spider of business, a core, you've got your core function, you've got this core leadership at the middle, and you got your 8 legs. You got sales, you got marketing. I always like to say to sales and marketing, you're the same thing, aren't you? Just watching.

Dan Temple [01:00:41]:
Crip. Crinkle. You got sales, you got marketing, you got logistics, you got HR that everyone blames when everything goes wrong. It's always HR's fault. And you've got your different section, these different legs. If you pull a leg off, the business is gonna carry on, but might limp a little bit, might struggle. Mhmm. Pull another leg off, it's really gonna start to struggle.

Dan Temple [01:00:58]:
Because all the core centralized leadership that the functions are in the middle, if you like the management. Whereas in a starfish, every leg has got its own, so you can do that. Yeah. They talked about decentralized leadership. Goes back to think about the Apache Indians and how they hammered when the Spanish invaded and went over the border into Nevada. They took Mexico, and they went up north, and they got hammered. Because the Indians, the way they were, they were decentralized. They moved around Al Qaeda when you look at ISIS now and careful how political we go, but it's how they're operating.

Dan Temple [01:01:27]:
They have that decentralized function. People say about businesses, well, you can't have that. You've gotta have. Well, you've gotta have an element of both. Yeah. In the hierarchical sense, you have people who are responsible and accountable. Doesn't mean to say that everyone else is not, and if you'd ever lose somebody Yeah. You lose that linchpin or that middle, that core bit Yeah.

Dan Temple [01:01:47]:
You've got. Yeah. I love it and I read it a couple of times now, I used it for my studies, and I just think it really sets a scene and I would implore anyone, any business owner, manager, leader, or just anyone, anyone's a leader, newest, most junior person in your business is a leader.

Richard Hill [01:02:02]:
We'll get it on the list. We'll we'll we'll get it on the list on the on the show notes of this episode. That way, if you're listening, go to the equalone.comforward/, the for the podcast, the episode, and we'll tag that up. I'll get it ordered. So by the time you listen to this, I will have consumed. Sounds fantastic. Did you wanna read something out? Yes. Anyway.

Richard Hill [01:02:19]:

Dan Temple [01:02:23]:
I talked about children, and I think one of the big things I put a post on LinkedIn today about book recommendations and so he said about in the military staff officers will will quote from, the staff courses about how to get better and it's all the leadership. So one of my favorite books I'll give to you is Over the Places You'll Go. I carry around with me, genuinely I do, because I think it's just one of the most fantastic books ever. Our son actually, he loves our eldest son. And then there's 2 bits I'm gonna read from the start. And he talks about the start. He said, if your brain's in your head, your feet in your shoes, you can steer yourself any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you would know.

Dan Temple [01:02:59]:
And you are the guy who decide where to go. Now that's an opening paragraph for me, and that's just like really sets that scene about it. And at the very end of it, he talks about, love a bit of doctor Seuss. He says, so be your name Bucksbaum or Bigsby or Bray or Mordecai Ali, Van Allen O'Shea. You're off to great places. Today is your day. Your mountain is waiting. Get on your way.

Richard Hill [01:03:21]:
Wow. Are these the books you'd love to be to your children?

Dan Temple [01:03:25]:
Well, my 8 year old Really? He reads to me now. Yeah. He's beyond the bit beyond doctor Seuss, but we've got the full collections. I'm looking for a little 2 year old. Yeah. We read it with him. Again, at the moment, you have to eat them rather than read them, but we'll get there.

Richard Hill [01:03:36]:
That sounds that sounds fat. That sounds fat. I think, my kids are a bit older now, and, I send them very similar different but similar motivational Instagram reels these mornings. So I know when they wake up, they've got a positive. Yeah. I'll be like, go get it, son. You know? And it's they they they're sort of it's and I said about every other day, I'll send them on to each son. Yeah.

Richard Hill [01:03:58]:
Until they wake up to something that's like, come on.

Dan Temple [01:04:00]:
But it's that like you said, it's going that simple, but then when you talk about VUCA, they're hyper connected. There's so much going on. The world is so busy. Yeah. Talk about the news and look, the proliferation of news, how many news channels we've got, papers, all that sort of stuff. So Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back to basics.

Richard Hill [01:04:14]:
Well, Dan, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on. As Richard said. Wanna find out more about you, more about Cobalt, what's the best way to do that?

Dan Temple [01:04:21]:
So info at Cobalt hs.co.uk. Yeah. Look me up Downtonville on LinkedIn. You can't miss me. Upside down head. Nice and shiny. And just network in LinkedIn. Love getting out and about.

Dan Temple [01:04:32]:
Everyone knows me for my trousers. So, I I was disappointed today with someone else. It's a gender neutral down.

Richard Hill [01:04:38]:
I do feel like I

Dan Temple [01:04:38]:
I just thought this got very often I get to clash with in the trouser front, but,

Richard Hill [01:04:42]:
So me and Dan met, about 3 weeks ago at a at a at one of our events, here in Lincoln in the UK, and, I had my bright orange trousers on. And Dan was like, yo. What? I must have

Dan Temple [01:04:55]:
caused, didn't I? My must have caused that.

Richard Hill [01:04:57]:
Yeah? Yeah. And Dan's eComOne with the red pair today, and I have I have just gone pretty denim straight denim. So well, Dan, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on today. We're looking forward to doing this again.

Dan Temple [01:05:08]:
Yeah. So am I. Yeah. Thank you for keeping up. And my little banger that you

Richard Hill [01:05:12]:
me on my toes.

Dan Temple [01:05:13]:
I'll tell you what. Yeah.

Richard Hill [01:05:14]:
Thank you. Cheers, buddy. Cheers. If If you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. You're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on the next one.

Accelerate Your Online Growth With SEO, PPC, Digital PR and CVO Accelerate Your Online Growth With SEO, PPC, Digital PR and CVO