E145: Damien Roux and Christopher Bradley

Richard Hill [00:00:00]:

Um, hi there.

Richard Hill [00:00:05]:

I'm Richard Hill, the host of eCom@One, and welcome to episode 145. In this episode, I speak with Damien Roux, CEO, and Chris Bradley, product specialist at Drimify. I imagine that most of you have seen those spinning wheels on stores where you can win a discount or a free item. Well, games, contests, and free offers should be in every store's arsenal. And the team at Dreamify take this to a whole new level. In this episode, Demianne and Chris talk all things Gamification and ecommerce, kicking off with the surprising benefits how Gamification increased customers engagement and loyalty. Where are some of the common mistakes people make when implementing Gamification? And the guy stepped through real world implementations where Gamification has worked extremely well, what they did, and the results and the best ways to measure the success of Gamification and ecommerce, which is always a bit tricky. And so much more on this. So if you enjoyed this episode, hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you are listening to this podcast. So you're always the first to know when a new episode is released. Now let's head over to this fantastic episode.

Richard Hill [00:01:02]:

So it's not very often we have two people on the podcast at the same time, so I'm looking forward to this one. Should be an absolute blast. So I think it'd be great to kick off, sort of introduce yourselves, maybe. Demian, you go first. Introduce yourself and sort of tell our listeners how you go into the world of ecommerce.

Damien Roux [00:01:20]:

Yes, sure. So I'm Damien, I'm the CEO of Dreamify, and we've been doing Gamification since, I mean, creating games since 2007. So Dreamify is a product of the Dreamlike agency. So we are also a digital agency. But quite quickly we went into creating games and creating Gamification experiences for businesses. So we started in the entertainment sector and slowly, slowly we've been asked to develop like, game concepts around product placement, product launch, and things like that. So that's how we ended up creating Drumify as a platform where people can create and customize games in a matter of minutes. And we found ourselves being quite successful in the ecommerce sector because ecommerce websites are always trying to engage even more with customers. So that's how we use games and Gamification to do that.

Richard Hill [00:02:11]:

Yeah. Exciting. Exciting. Chris?

Christopher Bradley [00:02:15]:

Well, I kind of came on doing sort of content with Damien Dremify and just doing some copywriting and kind of evolved a little bit into product specialists, but also doing some of the content stuff as well, which is more kind of where my background comes from.

Richard Hill [00:02:31]:

Yeah. So both very busy guys then both very busy guys in a side of ecom that doesn't really get digital, that doesn't get spoken about that much in my sphere, if you like. Obviously we're on I think this will be about 144th, 145th episode when it goes live. And I think Gamification, we've not really talked about more than probably a snippet in an episode. So really looking forward to getting stuck in. But what would you say has been the most pivotal moment in your career to date then, guys, in your ecom side?

Damien Roux [00:03:07]:

Yes, there are two angles for us as a company. Like, we are only selling digital products online, so we are not selling physical products. So what has been pivotal is when we've been moving into a SaaS business, a SaaS model, because before we were just selling our services in agency mode. So like, a client is getting in touch, we are creating a project, building the game or building the experience, and we deliver it. So it was like hands on and it was requiring a lot of human time and energy. So that's why when we decided to move into a platform, that's where it's been like a big game changer for us because we were able to sell our products online country in the world without having to do almost anything, or at least not being like it's been like asynchronous. So that's where it's becoming powerful. It's when you don't have to be there all the time to operate the business.

Richard Hill [00:04:12]:

I think. Any agencies owners that are listing now? Yeah, I need one of those.

Damien Roux [00:04:19]:

Exactly.

Richard Hill [00:04:20]:

I know a lot of agencies that are a lot of agencies that also have a SaaS and I also know a lot of SAS owners. And yeah, it's obviously a brilliant model. Brilliant model. Anything you want to add on that one, Chris?

Christopher Bradley [00:04:40]:

Not especially. I mean, I've done sort of a little bit of fulfillment in other businesses that I've worked at, but yeah, I suppose I've not really been in it long enough to have a pivotal moment other than joining, really, I'm afraid.

Richard Hill [00:04:53]:

Yeah, no, that's fine. So I think for the guys that are listed then, what would you say Gamification does? Explain it in ecommerce terms. Our listeners are typically, obviously ecommerce stores, ecommerce store owners, marketeers. What does gamification mean for them?

Christopher Bradley [00:05:16]:

So, I mean, just to start off with just putting what gamification is in a nutshell, just getting that definition down for anyone that's a little unsure, you're applying game mechanics and principles to tasks that are a little bit difficult or a little bit not the funnest thing. Anything where you're struggling to get people to do something, if you apply game mechanics to it, you can get the best out of them. If you think about how hard people go when they're playing sports, when they're playing Monopoly or pub quiz, it's trying to get that 110%, but get it into your people, engaging with your products, engaging with what you're selling. So, I mean, ecommerce is all about audience engagement. How do you stand out without that sort of someone there? And what you're doing with gamify content, it's just more engaging, it's interactive, it's an invitation. So it's just going it's a little bit more sophisticated and more advanced than just your video or your imagery and your slogan. I guess it's a more interactive, more sophisticated way of telling your brand story, telling your product story and moving people towards buying things.

Richard Hill [00:06:32]:

Yeah. So there must be huge benefits then in reality where people are spending more time engaging with the brand more. What would you say the benefits are over and above that?

Christopher Bradley [00:06:43]:

Well, I mean, there's a few aspects of Ecommerce that immediately jump out as being pretty ripe for being gamified, I would say. So if you think about acquisition from the first point of view, attracting the right customers, it's gamification, it's more interactive, it's a great way to ask questions, it's a great way to qualify your audience as well. If you think about any kind of branded questionnaires or if you think about product recommendation quizzes where, say, if you've got quite a technical sort of product range and you've not got that expert on a physical shop floor, you fall into that classic trap.

Richard Hill [00:07:23]:

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Christopher Bradley [00:08:07]:

I could give them too much information and completely put them off or I could give them too little information and they're not going to commit. Whereas with something like a product recommendation quiz, you can ask the right questions, model it on that superstar salesperson and you're matching that customer to the right product. It's like a digital salesperson, essentially. Yeah. And then you could also look at.

Damien Roux [00:08:31]:

Gamification and also like online contest on social media. That's a really big one for acquisition like Ecommerce. They are relying a lot on Facebook ads and social media ads. But instead of just having like a picture and a piece of text or a video and a piece of text, what you can do is bring gamification games because we've got quizzes, we've got instant win game mechanics that are really good for engagement as well, such as scratch cards, will of fortune, like spin the wheel, slot machines, things like that. And also like small games like memory cards and all those popular concepts that are known by everyone and are easy to engage with and you can use those customized concepts and put them inside your ads to attract even more customers, collect data and get the ball rolling.

Richard Hill [00:09:27]:

I'd imagine they also someone's gone to your website. Let's say they've gone via an SEO listing, found they're on the website. And then there's the option to go through, obviously one of those games or quiz funnel or quiz that's got to help with SEO, I think, because that user is spending more time on site, they're engaging with the page. That's a really good sign to yeah.

Damien Roux [00:09:56]:

Gamification for websites is amazing in terms of retention, meaning that you lower the bounce rate and people are spending more time. And also, for example, when you reach a page on ecommerce website and you get invited, like to spin the wheel and you get a promo code at the end, you are more likely to spend money on the website as well. So it's boosting like, conversion rates, engagement rates, all the rates are going through the roof with gamification.

Richard Hill [00:10:27]:

Yeah, sounds great. I think anything that can obviously improve engagement therefore they're taking action leading to a purchase or leading to an eventual purchase instill in that loyalty how would you say it sort of impacts loyalty. So we're getting people to the site. They're engaging with the page more. I get that they are spending likely more time on the site than they would have done if they're just a general shopper without sort of a gamification piece. But in terms of terms of then sort of layering in loyalty and getting them to potentially come back, how does gamification help that?

Christopher Bradley [00:11:08]:

Well, I suppose to get sort of a little bit academic about how Gamification works, you're kind of pulling on psychological engagement levers. So things like everyone kind of on some level is quite competitive. Everyone on some level likes a bit of discovery, they like social interaction. So it's more like you're not necessarily going to pull on all of those sort of engagement levers, but you're going to pull on the right ones to engage them in that experience. And the whole thing of it's, how you make someone feel if you're delivering an experience as part of the purchasing process, they're going to remember that it's going to be more like it's just a more positive association, isn't it? I guess as well. If you think about even loyalty schemes that you'll have with your gaining points, say, that you could, that's showing a level of progress, which again, is another game mechanic. And then maybe for sort of exclusive people that have opted into your newsletter, opted into your loyalty program, there's like extra little competitions, exclusive things, just little bits that sweeten the pot, essentially.

Richard Hill [00:12:20]:

Yeah, no, it completely makes sense. I think you just think about the old school. Well, they're not even old school, are they? But you loyalty card or you walk into a store, you then have that affinity to go back to that store because you want to build the points. You want to build that you've invested, you like the store, you like the website, you had a good experience first time. Obviously you got to get a lot of things right along with the game side of things. But ultimately you talked about spin the wheel. I see that quite a lot. There's a lot I've seen. That's something I've seen for many years to sort of spin the wheel.

Damien Roux [00:12:58]:

That's the most classic one. That's the one you can find a lot because it's quite widespread. But that's where, for example, a solution like Dreamify is bringing much more game mechanics. So that's where you can also alternate. And we encourage our customers to change the game mechanic all the time because it brings this novelty and people are like oh, there is a new game, I can win something new and so on. And in terms of retention and loyalty, you are talking about it. But things like, for example, at the end of the checkout process when someone has paid on the thank you page not to just say thank you, but you can put like a game in that page and tell them okay, now scratch a card or spin the wheel or play this game. And at the end of the playful experience, you get a promo code for your next purchase. So that's how you will it's a practical example, but that's how you can contribute to the loyalty and push people to come with repeat purchase.

Richard Hill [00:14:04]:

Yeah, I have to admit I play eight ball pull. The app eight ball or the game eight ball pull and you get the scratch. Various games within that you scratch oh yeah, 1000 points, another thousand points. Then I keep going back. I keep going back. It's a game. I keep going back to the last probably three years now. I keep playing.

Damien Roux [00:14:27]:

Just exciting.

Richard Hill [00:14:30]:

I don't play games at all really personally, but I quite like that sort of side of things. So obviously you've worked on quite a lot or a lot of businesses. What are some of the sort of common mistakes that you see people making? You referred to people maybe just setting something up and leaving it like spin the wheel. It's the same thing. So obviously refreshing things, making things, building into your roadmap, changing things out. But what are some of the other things that you see where people sort of implement wrongly?

Damien Roux [00:15:03]:

Maybe you say this, you spoke about the roadmap. So it's all about planning things in advance. So the same way you are planning your promotions on your ecommerce and your newsletters like everything you should be planning your gamification campaigns or your marketing games campaigns and that's the main thing people should do. Like not just expect that they will make one campaign for one week and get like amazing results. It's all in the repetition of it. So it's like we always compare to, for example, when you send a newsletter, you don't send one newsletter and then you keep doing it. With games, it's exactly the same. You have to get your audience to get used to it and to play to engage with different kind of games and that's how you will get the results and that's how people will have fun with your brand and will come back.

Christopher Bradley [00:16:02]:

I just add on there as well. In terms of repeating Gamification experiences. It's like even though the Dremify platform, you're getting all the tools to pretty easily create a game that will probably work first time out the gate, but you're going to learn things. You get lots of metrics on your back end as well, like engagement rate, participation rate. You can kind of see if people are dropping off in the experience. You learn from one thing to the next, like anything that's effective and that's worth doing, you're going to get better at it. So to start and then just to leave it to one side, you're just not getting the most out of it. You got to keep playing the game, so to speak.

Richard Hill [00:16:43]:

I think that's the mistake that people make with most things. They set something up. We do Google Ads, we set that up last year. It's like really? Is it working? Well? Not really. Well, it won't be. You have to log back in and tweak a few things to say that at least you don't pick up a.

Christopher Bradley [00:17:04]:

Tennis racket and win Wimbledon. Not quite 10,000 hours into Gamification, but a little bit of time.

Richard Hill [00:17:12]:

I think that's great advice, because I think a lot of people will. The amount of times we work with a lot of different tech partners and you name it, really, we've got various relationships with different softwares and tech companies, and the amount of times we will say, speak to a client or prospective client, I say, oh, yeah, we use that. But the reality is they installed it, paid the monthly fee and then didn't log in again. And then it's like you're having a laugh on you. You've got to like some of the email platforms. I have no stories of people paying ten grand a month for email platforms and they don't even send campaigns. It's like you're joking. And then they wonder why their email marketing isn't that profitable. Yeah, you got to log in, invest the time, obviously work with somebody or train somebody up, or obviously an agency, or internal, depending on size of the business.

Christopher Bradley [00:18:05]:

Spend that little bit.

Richard Hill [00:18:06]:

And usually it's a little bit of time to get the fundamentals and then some, which might be the 8% and then the detail, but just putting that bit of time in. Obviously it's nice to be able to buy software, flip the switch, pay year, whatever it is, monthly, but a lot of things need that tweak, don't they.

Christopher Bradley [00:18:24]:

That'S exactly what you said there about learn the fundamentals. You need to learn the rules before you can break them. And until you might find that there's one particular kind of style of game engine or gamification technique that's going to just really pop with your audience, like, unexpectedly. So. And if you don't, you know, do your groundwork and, you know, do, you know, follow the conventions. Yeah. You're not going to find that, you know, that jump shot or whatever, that's going to really do the numbers.

Damien Roux [00:18:52]:

And if it works, and if it works, you have to repeat it. So not all the time, but if something has worked, I don't know, last year, do it again. So that's also like a big piece of advice because some people are doing stuff and then they jump onto something else. But if something worked, do it again. Try to repeat, try to improve. And that's how you can increase all the KPIs as well.

Christopher Bradley [00:19:17]:

Yeah, I mean, look at McDonald's Monopoly for something that worked and just keeps getting repeated and works every time.

Richard Hill [00:19:24]:

You can't be a Monopoly, can you?

Christopher Bradley [00:19:26]:

Everyone likes, again, Monopoly, it's too stressful. I don't partake it is in our.

Richard Hill [00:19:33]:

Household, it is quite stressful.

Christopher Bradley [00:19:35]:

Wow. I can only play if everyone else is going to try and ruin it as well. The problem is, I'm always the one that ruins it because I'm the one who takes it so seriously.

Richard Hill [00:19:43]:

What annoys me is the deals. Obviously, you get to a point and you have to do deals, and then my kids are just a bit too how can I put it? They're just a bit too sharky. They're trying to die.

Christopher Bradley [00:19:54]:

I thought you're going to go the other way.

Richard Hill [00:19:58]:

Maybe when they were younger, though, it was easy to sort of maybe get Mayfair offer for $300. But now they spent too much time watching Shark Tank and this, that and the other, you know, all these programs. So they're a bit so, yeah, it used to be quite easy to beat them. But I think you got to go hard straight away. You got a butt just by everything, and you usually do all right, but obviously you need a bit of luck on the dice.

Christopher Bradley [00:20:22]:

Don't you need to get into Settlers of Catan? That's a real game.

Richard Hill [00:20:27]:

Oh, not heard of that one.

Christopher Bradley [00:20:29]:

Oh, Settlers of Catan for a tabletop game. Okay. You'll never touch Monopoly again.

Richard Hill [00:20:35]:

Okay, I'll make a note of that. So obviously you worked on a lot of campaigns. We touched on the sort of mistakes that you see and the things that people should be working on. But I think it'd be really good, make it a bit more real. As an ecommerce store owner listening to us right now, give us an example of something, what you did, the type of games, et cetera, that you did and what the sort of results were with that campaign or that project.

Damien Roux [00:21:00]:

Yeah, sure. So we've got quite a few examples, not just one. So the first one would be like in the perfumes and fragrances ecommerce. So it was basically like a quiz where people were asked questions about the products themselves. So they had to go inside into the website, search in the pages, like for example, what's the color of this bottle? And so on and so on. So it was like some kind of discovery path campaign, so pushing people to explore the website, find the answers, and at the end of the day, they were getting like promo codes based on the minimum spend. So it means that you are getting 30% if you are spending more than this, 20% more than that and so on. So with this we managed to achieve like a plus 92% increase in average basket value. So it's almost like doubling the basket value just because people were getting like 30% off. So instead of buying just one product, they were sometimes buying two or three.

Richard Hill [00:22:05]:

Average order value. Obviously the different thresholds you pass, the different discount you get. Yeah, that's great.

Damien Roux [00:22:14]:

Yeah, so that's really powerful. Another example was for CBD ecommerce website, it was last Christmas and they've been doing like an advanced calendar. So for 25 days they've been engaging with their audience through an advanced calendar. So it was like a really good excuse to send an email every day to tell them there is a new game available, come and try to win prizes, goodies promo codes. So it worked really well. It was their best campaign of the year. So a lot of engagement, a lot of sales. So again, like, really good advanced calendars at the end of the year. Another one was for a car parts ecommerce website. So you can buy parts for your car and fix it yourself. So it was a product recommendation questionnaire. So asking questions, trying to define. So it's gamification because you answer the questions in a playful way, but it's not a game. So it's more like helping the customer to make a decision before the purchase. So that's really good as well. And maybe like another last example, and it's quite close to what we've been talking about earlier, it's the post checkout page, like the thank you page where you put any sort of game and you just give away goodies, like promo code just to push like repeat purchase. And we've done it with many, many websites. We've done it also with hotel rooms, booking websites. So at the end you can get like an upgrade or you can get like a bottle of champagne in your room and things like that, but just like a way to thank you, to thanks the customer and to take them to the next step.

Richard Hill [00:23:59]:

That's a lot. Yeah, I can imagine everybody listening now. That's a lot of different ideas there. I love the they're all great, but if you're maybe selling a product that's maybe got that component part a little bit complicated. If we're gamifying that sort of experience.

Damien Roux [00:24:16]:

It's also like to understand that gamification and games in general can be implemented at every single step of the customer journey. And that's really important because some websites, they might just use gamification and games for the acquisition. So that's great. But then you can also do it for activation. Like for example, people are on your website, they are putting stuff in their basket and then they leave the website. So you can send them an email and tell them, oh, you forgot this in your basket, come back and buy it, blah, blah. But you could also tell them you forgot this, and now scratch a card, get a promo code and convert. So that's again, adding some sort of interaction to the automation to make sure that people are engaging even more.

Richard Hill [00:25:05]:

All these things. I mentioned it sort of 20 minutes ago. But it's all got to help. Surely the SEO side, all that interaction, all that you're punching around looking for these things to then get whatever it may be, a discount, access to this or certain discounts. Here you're interacting with 510, 20 pages in that first example in terms of SEO footprint interactions on page site. All those things got to have a real impact on the SEO side of things.

Damien Roux [00:25:40]:

I've got another example if you want a really good one. You made me think about it again, like it's a discovery campaign. So it's basically you can spin the wheel, so you have to go, you get to the page, you spin the wheel, you lose. And then we tell you, okay, if you want to try again, go to this page. So you discover another page and then you do it again and again and again. So you could do it like five times a day and you could come back every day. So imagine the number of page views, the number of products people can discover, and the increase in sales is bringing it's massive.

Richard Hill [00:26:13]:

And then you could probably take that, the people that are more engaged, put them into an audience on Facebook if they've been to the site several times, they're obviously more like to purchase, then put them in a different audience, bid more different products, similar products to where maybe where the game was, et cetera. Okay, so software tools, obviously Jimmy Fine and we tell us a little bit more about your own software and platform. And obviously in anything else that you'll recommend, it's going to be people that are maybe doing nothing, want to sort of dip their toe in and try things. And there's maybe people that are either end of the scale that maybe tried everything and are looking for a real sort of top tier tech stack. And I don't doubt your tech will do the whole array. Tell us a bit more about your platform and then sort of any other tools and software that you'd recommend?

Christopher Bradley [00:27:11]:

Yeah, I guess just for a bit of context as well. If you go back what, 1015 years when Gamification was happening but it was definitely more sort of little whispers and sort of a successful crack here and there. But brands were having to make it all themselves. So it was either for brands that could afford to bring the agency in with the know how to put it all together for them or they had not only in house expertise, the in house coding knowledge, but the time resource to commit to that as well. Whereas with Dremify you've got, we've got several pre made game engines and a load more just in development as well that can be adapted to well, specifically for ecommerce, we've got loads for that. Sort of like your branded casual games and your, your instant wins and whatnot. Yeah, but I guess like the good analogy is think about what it was like to build a website before Wix or WordPress came along.

Richard Hill [00:28:12]:

Oh, I remember.

Christopher Bradley [00:28:14]:

Yeah, it wasn't fun, it looked hard. I only started trying to build websites when WordPress was around. But it's that kind of situation, it's putting the tools into everyone's hands like your small and medium sized enterprises as well as the big monster companies that can. And also think about it this way, if you build it from scratch, what if you've got a bug? What if something goes wrong on Dremify? You've got battle tested game engines that you're going to get all your KPIs on, look at your metrics, et cetera. So yeah, that's kind of what the Dremify platform does and heavily recommend it.

Damien Roux [00:28:56]:

And it's also really easy to use. You don't need any coding skills, it's like text and images and the game is built by itself, by the system. And in terms of tech stack, what you have to keep in mind is that Gamification is part of a bigger ecosystem. So you have to think about it as part of your automation. For example, we are talking about it like when you send a basket recovery mail, you could include a game in it when people are landing onto your website, they could get like a game to get them a promo code to push them to convert. We are interacting through our API or through different systems with CRMs salesforce, Clavio, like all those systems. So when something is happening within the game and within the customer journey that there are triggers that will be able to send information to the website to qualify your profile better or to a CRM platform to send an email.

Richard Hill [00:29:58]:

So it integrates with Clavia.

Damien Roux [00:30:01]:

Yeah, all of them. We are integrating with all the solutions.

Richard Hill [00:30:07]:

A lot of listeners that have clayo and we've got a lot of clients within our agency that are on Favio. So great to hear. So I think crystal ball time then we're sat here in. Twelve months time. What would you say? What are some of the things that our listeners should be looking out for and should be thinking about what's coming down the line? The future of Gamification.

Christopher Bradley [00:30:32]:

It's honestly a bit of a new frontier, really, as I alluded to earlier. Gamification as we know it now, only really sort of kicked off in the last 1012 years with sort of mobile technology getting so fast and then chat GPT. Honestly, it's like it snuck up behind me from behind the door with AI coming out, and how we'll be able to integrate that into maybe even the creation side of it and beyond. And then think about as you look at virtual reality, okay, things like Oculus are still quite high ticket. But that kind of technology, as that becomes trickle down, as that becomes more accessible I almost think from an ecommerce point of view, I was thinking about this. I used to work in, like, a record store when I was a lot younger and I wonder if the future of ecommerce of music you'll maybe put on your goggles go into a virtual record store and buy your MP3 s. Like that way. But I guess more sensibly if you think about specialist retail areas. The possibilities with virtual reality, that probably a bit longer than twelve months, but some really exciting possibilities that are definitely in the future.

Richard Hill [00:31:44]:

Yeah, definitely. So. Definitely. So. Sorry.

Damien Roux [00:31:49]:

No, I think the future is also to see more Gamification everywhere, because Gamification removes friction most of the time, and everyone like not just ecommerce websites, but just like any business needs to remove frictions in the customer journey. So Gamification is here for that. So that's why I think it will go further and should be used even more.

Richard Hill [00:32:12]:

I think that's a great way to think of it. Gamification removes friction. Yeah, that's a really good way to frame it. I think that's a perfect pivot to wrapping things up. I think obviously there's a lot of takeaways there. I would challenge the majority of Listers. How many of you are actually using Gamification on your sites right now? I would imagine knowing the hundreds and hundreds of people that we deal with on a monthly basis and work with. I can't think of many, if I'm honest. So I would imagine a lot of listeners are thinking now. So I like to end every episode with a book recommendation. Guys, I give you a book each. What books would you recommend to our listeners?

Christopher Bradley [00:32:56]:

Do you want to go first, Davian, or should I go first because I.

Damien Roux [00:33:03]:

Don'T have the time to read. So that's it. So that's my recommendation.

Richard Hill [00:33:07]:

Well, don't read. Sincerely.

Christopher Bradley [00:33:15]:

He works too much. I get emails from him at seven in the morning. I fully believe he doesn't read. Doesn't have time to read. I presume you're looking for anything.

Richard Hill [00:33:25]:

It can be the book on Gamification, if that exists. I'm not sure you're going to tell me you've written one now?

Christopher Bradley [00:33:38]:

Researching that probably honestly what I find most like sports biographies, but sports biographies by relatively amateur sportsmen. Like, I read a lot of ultra running books because they generally are having to work alongside putting in these crazy 100 miles weeks. And I always find it really just interesting reading about the sacrifices people reading about people that have walked the walk. Like, I have read a lot of the sort of the management style books, but they all kind of start to blend into a lot of common sense. So I really enjoy just reading sports biographies, to be honest.

Richard Hill [00:34:16]:

What's been the most recent one you'd recommend?

Christopher Bradley [00:34:21]:

There's a South African ultrarunner called Ryan Sands and he wrote a book called Trailblazer. It's quite old now, like he's been in the game for a long time, but that's just I don't know. I just remember thinking this is like, this is how you put a book like this together. Like it was very specific in terms of like the advice he was giving. It was he'd thought about the list, he'd thought about the reader. Which I think with a lot of that style of book, you don't always see because I knew you were going to ask about the book recommendation. I did go through a phase of reading a lot of those management style books and I think the one that sticks in my mind you ever read The Chimp Paradox? Yeah, it's just the idea of all these kind of ridiculous emotions that you have all the time, this chimp that's completely independent to you as like a human. And it's kind of your job to train your chimp so you can be an effective human being. So that was one of the ones that I thought, okay, I quite like how you're taking the psychology and you're simplifying it a little bit. So that one perhaps.

Richard Hill [00:35:26]:

It can be anything. I think the book you mentioned, the Trailblazer, I think that I love things like that. It relates to it's very relatable, isn't it? Obviously I haven't done an ultramarphin or whatever, the 100 miles or 200 miles, things like that. I don't think I've never done a marathon.

Christopher Bradley [00:35:45]:

They get a bit out of hand.

Richard Hill [00:35:46]:

Challenging times in my life. And it's relatable, isn't it, how people push through whatever it may be. And that's very relatable to all our listeners, I'm sure, that are running stores and trying to push from the million to the 5 million to the 10 million and doing the 100 hours weeks and failing fast or failing and figuring stuff out and learning and then coming out the other end and surviving and having the scars to show it just like the runner who's feet are knackered after a week of running.

Christopher Bradley [00:36:18]:

What about you? You got any book recommendations for us?

Richard Hill [00:36:20]:

Oh, golly, so let me think. I really like Mindset by Carol Dweck. Okay, that's a good book. It's been out quite a few years. Yeah, I would probably go with that one.

Christopher Bradley [00:36:35]:

I'll check it out. I'll check it out.

Richard Hill [00:36:37]:

Well, guys, thank you for coming on the show. For the guys that want to find out more about you and reach out to you guys, what's the best way to do that?

Christopher Bradley [00:36:47]:

Head over to our website, www.drimify.com and play the demos as well. Have a look. You can sign up for you can create an account for free as well and then try out the demo, see what you think will work. Have a read of some of the case studies.

Richard Hill [00:37:04]:

Yeah, brilliant. Well, thanks for coming on the show. I'll speak to you again.

Damien Roux [00:37:08]:

Thanks for speaking again.

Christopher Bradley [00:37:09]:

Nice. Thanks for having us.

Damien Roux [00:37:11]:

Take care.

Richard Hill [00:37:12]:

Thank you for listening to the eCom@One eCommerce podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please hit subscribe. And don't forget to sign up to our Ecommerce newsletter and leave us a review on itunes. This podcast has been brought to you by our team here at Ecom One, the Ecommerce marketing agency.