E26: Alex Doyle

Richard Hill:
Hi and welcome to another episode of eCom@One, and today's guest is Alex Doyle. Now Alex is the Founder and CEO of Altr London, a cosmetic company with a focus on environmentally friendly products for men. How are you doing Alex, you okay?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah I'm not too bad thank you, how are you doing?
Richard Hill:
I'm doing really well, really well yeah. Really good. Busy, busy week, I think as we were saying before the call, it's almost like there's been a light switch put on in a lot of businesses this last few days, literally madness since Monday. I think obviously we've got this ... maybe an element of a lot of children going back to school and a lot of summer holidays been and done, I know you were saying how busy things are as well, so I think it would be good to get a little background from you, sort of the motivation behind Altr London, if that's okay?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, I think you're spot on there. I think it's leading up to Black Friday and Q4, it's just starting to get absolutely hectic, but yeah, prepping hard. Yeah, so Altr London, we've been around for about two years now, two-and-a-half years, I started it just after coming out of university. Sort of growing up as a teenager I always struggled with spots and acne, and obviously as a sort of teenage guy in school and then university you can become quite self-conscious of it, particularly when you're going out a long and your on social media all the time, so I was always looking for sort of medical solutions, something that could help me cover up the spots and acne, but never really found anything until I think one friend recommended cosmetics, concealer.
Alex Doyle:
I tried that, thought, "Wow this is a game changer but it's not quite right for my skin, I don't really know how to apply it," like guys aren't brought up wearing makeup, cosmetics, in the same way that women are, and so sort of thought if a brand can sort of show this off and do it in a way that's innovative, new, and actually shows guys how to apply, I thought there might be something there and that's really where we started off from.
Richard Hill:
Literally, you know, it was a problem that you'd encountered personally, you're looking for sort of options, and then went from ... so tell me how ... so you manufacture your own products, and obviously in the sort of cosmetic space I think there's a lot of chatter and sort of discussion around how things are tested, and how things are then brought to ... you know, they're tested through different trials and then ultimately you know, you get sort of the stamp of approval, but not many firms, including yourself, test on animals anymore, so how do you test your products?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, so when we were starting off we had to find a manufacturer, so we do have a manufacturer produce the products for us. I wanted them to be UK-based, both the sort of ease of communication and speed of sort of going from sort of order to actually getting the order, also just for sustainability reasons obviously nowadays thing are traveling from China all across the world, and from a sustainability point of view which is quite big in our ethos, it was really important to me that the products were coming from the UK and had quite a sort of low carbon footprint.
Alex Doyle:
In terms of testing, you're right, a lot of ... most brands nowadays don't test on animals, particularly smaller ones, and the way we do the testing is, I mean the technical side of it we leave to our manufacturers mainly, but make sure that it's all dermatologically tested, always a tough word that one, but obviously for myself growing up with acne, it's really important that the product's sort of doing more good for the skin than they are harming it, which can be the case for a lot of cosmetics products nowadays. So like our Face Fix concealer for instance, which is our best seller, that has Supreme China Clay in it, which is an ingredient that actually removes excess dirt, grime, and oil from the skin which are primary causes of acne and other skin forms.
Richard Hill:
Yeah okay, so very important how the product is manufactured, very important how the product is transported, so you've got that sort of sustainability aspect, that sort of carbon footprint aspect, I think ... now how important has that been to the brand, the branding of the products and the brand, you know, in terms of ... I know you've got a huge community out there, I think that ties in quite nicely with that community doesn't it? You know, obviously you've got a certain way that you do business and a certain way that you ... you know, will only run with and sell products that sort of fit and tick that box?
Alex Doyle:
I think that's it nowadays. I mean we are very much targeted at sort of Gen Z and Millennials who are obviously much more conscious environmentally and socially than perhaps consumers have been in the past. So nowadays it's really important to have a good ethos behind the brand, and that sort of comes from your practice of ... from making the product to when you're marketing the product and beyond that even, that's when you're actually fulfilling the products and the sort of follow-up journeys beyond that.
Richard Hill:
So community-wise, obviously you're very strong on a lot of the different social channels, any insights you can give the listeners into some of the things that have worked for you on the community aspect or some of the advice you would give on building that community?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah for sure, I mean I think being a male makeup brand, we started off very Facebook-focused, very Instagram-focused as well. Obviously being makeup for men, we are one of the first brands out there and there just was not like a search volume there, so we much traffic from Google organically.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Alex Doyle:
So we really have to focus on push advertising, which we did a lot of through Facebook marketing where we use a lot of influencer posts particularly, and that I find helps in terms of sort of building a bit of trust and confidence around a product that guys haven't tried before, perhaps showing whether it's reality stars or even just micro-influencers, I think it sort of really gains that credibility from them to your brand in a sense. I think once we acquired those customers and they're following those, it's really about posting relatable content, we do a lot of stuff in terms of memes, as well as a lot of tutorial content and giveaways and IGTV and all that sort of thing really, that's really important, sort of building that connection to the consumer.
Richard Hill:
So a whole mix there in terms of the types of content. I know you do a lot of, like you say, makeup tutorials and video, so you get your community to create video and send video and reviews and that style, sort of the real customers that are using the product actually chipping in and contributing to the whole sort of content piece.
Alex Doyle:
Yeah that's really important for us. I mean most of our sort of paid advertising spend is using sort of user-generated content really. We encourage our customers a lot to sort of send in that before and after content, their video footage once they've made the products we reward them with vouchers, loyalty program, free products, and all that jazz really because I just find that the way you sort of gain trust from other people is showing regular people using your products really.
Richard Hill:
Yeah absolutely. There's nothing like a relatable, you know, somebody that's like yourself with the same problem or similar problems that have ... you know, are now ... you know, like a brand, try the brand, and trust the brand more importantly, with products for your skin, which is obviously a very personal thing. You know, I think there's a lot of ... it's very easy to fire up a Facebook ad, but you don't just overnight have that brand authority trust, you know, it takes time, and it's obviously if you've got your actually genuine customers posting videos of how happy they are and you know, there's a consistent flow of different creatives of actual consumers that are buying your product, you know, there's nothing better is there? In any business.
Richard Hill:
You know it's all right businesses saying how great their products are, which everyone can do, can't they? But nothing better, you know, same for a boring old agency in comparison to an e-com store, you know it's ... we can tell you how great our advertising campaigns are, but there's nothing better than speaking to a customer who did, you know, X amount a month through VPAs or whatever. So yeah okay, so obviously you're only two years into the journey, it's quite a new ... that's nothing in reality, but it's obviously a lot of ups and downs no doubt-
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, it's definitely a lot longer than two years, I'll tell you that.
Richard Hill:
Two years into the launch wasn't it? Is that what you said at the beginning?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah.
Richard Hill:
From sort of obviously a lot of time before that, before the sort of ... you know, the actual live, what would you say has been some of your biggest learning points throughout the journey?
Alex Doyle:
I'd say a bit thing that I've been focusing a lot more on recently is mentality really. When it comes to business I think that it's very easy to go through the highs and lows of running a business and letting that sort of affect your mood in a sense, and I think that sort of trickles down into everything you're doing. I think it trickles down into your creativity for one, when you're looking to market your business, if you're not in the right frame of mind and thinking positively, I think that can really sort of show in what you're producing and how your marketing to customers.
Alex Doyle:
So that's been a big focus for me recently is sort of really getting on top of the sort of mental game, having a positive attitude.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, have you got any sort of routines then and sort of specific things that you do or is there anything sort ... any sort of actionable takeaways that you'd recommend? Is there any sort of morning things and sort of routines?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, I feel like it should be something really exciting now you say it like that, but it's more just ... particularly for me I find exercise is super important. If I'm not exercising regularly I'm getting angsty, I'm getting frustrated, and I really need something to be able to take that out, so thankfully I play a lot of football which helps me take out energy otherwise it'd be a-
Richard Hill:
Yeah some of the guys here started five-a-side, I think yesterday actually, it's like, wow. You know, I like a bit of fitness, don't get me wrong ... yeah I'm with you on that. I think it's obviously more and more ... it has been more and more challenging when we're working from home to sort of…
Alex Doyle:
Staying inside all the time and you don't get that sort of break perhaps from work-life balance and then if you've not got another sort of thing to really take your mind off it and sort of channel your energy, and so that can be, I mean quite draining.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, so obviously you're in a ... you know, you're in a sub-niche within sort of grooming, male grooming, or male cosmetics, you know what you're saying about some of the social media strategies you're doing, you know, sounds fantastic, but still, there must be a lot of other brands doing, you know, similar things and you know still, for the guys that are listening and sort of trying to get a takeaway from the podcast, you know, it still can be challenging to sort of raise your head above, and be heard above all the noise that's out there in either ... in whatever industry you're in, so any sort of tips you can give you really get noticed? You talked about micro-influencers, influencers which I think is ... you know I think a lot of people obviously know about that area, but it's not as well known, you know like it's not like ... you know Facebook ads, but influencers, maybe talk about that a bit more, and also anything else that you think the listeners could get value from in terms of really getting heard above all the noise that's out there in an industry.
Alex Doyle:
No 100%. I mean like you say, we're kind of niche in the sort of grand scheme of things, but even within that, I mean we've been around for two years now, we were like the first guys really doing this sort of men's makeup and taking a social media approach, and then within the last year or so it's just suddenly ... there's a new brand popping up ... it seems like every week there's a new brand popping up and trying to do the sort of same thing that we're doing and following in our lead in a sense, so it's really important I think, like you say, to sort of try and make sure you're constantly ahead of the game, which is never easy to do, but I think that's the main thing really, is it's making sure you're producing content that is innovative and different, and like you say, influencers ... okay, everyone's using influencers nowadays, but doing that in a way that's different is super important.
Alex Doyle:
The way we do it now is try and build that trust but getting influencers onto a sort of longer-term contract essentially, so we have influencers sign up for three to six month contracts, when they buy they get free products and affiliate commission
Richard Hill:
And do you find them yourself or do you work through an agent ... how does that work? You know, we're not an influencer agency, I'm intrigued personally how ... you know, it's not something we do at all, and I think a fraction of our clients do as well, how does the ... where's a good place to start? Guys that are listening, right, they want to engage influencers, what's a couple of strategies to engage them?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, I mean we do most of it ourselves, like being a sort of brand focused on Millennials et cetera it's a bit easier because we have quite a good fan base, quite a bit community as well nowadays which means that they come directly to us a lot of the time and sort of want to collab, and then it's sort of ... particularly when it's people who've used your products before it's actually easier as well because they might not have as big of a following, but they know how to use your product, you know they liked your product, and they're going to do a really good job of selling it, and I think that authenticity is super important so I think that people sort of have these boundaries of followers, they have to have X amount of followers, when in reality I think actually the content is the most important part, it's the most value you're going to get is through being able to reuse that content and sort of re-share it and so that's a big one for us is when they come to us, and then there's also a cool app called Carro out there as well, which I don't know if you've heard of.
Alex Doyle:
That's a Shopify app and they basically can sort of take your customer data and see how many Instagram followers they all have essentially so they can to Instagram profiles to see, okay, these are your customers with the most influence, you can reach out to them, and that's all for free pretty much as well, so it's a really cool platform to start off if you want to look within your existing database.
Richard Hill:
Yeah that's amazing isn't it? I think you know, you've got influencers and like anything you've got these tiers, I guess, where you know they've got these maybe household names which are going to be very expensive and maybe not connect ... or it's going to be hard to find somebody that really connects with your audience maybe, but when you've got these existing customers that are ... you know, they're still going to have quite a following, but they're going to be ... I guess to put it bluntly they're going to be cheaper aren't they, you know, to get started, and are obviously ... and obviously they're on a journey as well as influencers and social media sort of influencers, so you know, you're going to build relationships, I assume, with some of these people that are up-and-coming, which is great for the brand as well commercially for both sides, you know, you're working with up-and-coming people, they're working with up-and-coming brands, commercially you're both wining, would that be fair to say?
Alex Doyle:
No, yeah you're spot on there really. So we've been running this influencer program for about a year now and even within that time we've seen some of our influencers go from really, you know, very low followings to you know, tens of thousands of followers on Instagram and thousands of YouTube subscribers as well, which is great, it's like you say, it's a win-win whereby we're ... at this point now we're getting followers from them and they're getting followers from us while we're sharing each other's content, so it's-
Richard Hill:
So it literally can start for a few hundred pounds sort of this is what we're saying, potentially maybe? Is that what you're saying or?
Alex Doyle:
In our ... we don't pay influencers in general, that's all we pay via products and via affiliate fees essentially.
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Alex Doyle:
So they're getting paid when they're selling products essentially, which obviously again, it's a win-win and our affiliates and our influencers do well out of it as well, so they're happy because they're making sales, we sort of promote them through our emails, and our Instagram page and promote their code to help them out with it of course with-
Richard Hill:
Yeah, so-
Alex Doyle:
I think with the micro-influencer, the smaller influencers, a lot of the time you don't have to pay a flat-out fee really.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, so the affiliate ... so obviously a lot of the revenue comes via the affiliates for them, is there any affiliate technology that you'd recommend? You know, so you're using Shopify, anything specific that you would sort of recommend?
Alex Doyle:
We do a lot of it at the moment, a big platform, and we just ... we run those data through there to be honest with you.
Richard Hill:
Yeah, very long-standing company, yeah.
Alex Doyle:
In fact they do a good job of it for us, just keeping track of it, but I know there are a few up-and-coming sort of Shopify apps I think that are out there that seem to be doing some cool stuff as well whereby it gives sort of data a lot more visibility which I'm quite keen on looking at at the moment, but-
Richard Hill:
Yeah.
Alex Doyle:
So I'd recommend starting there perhaps.
Richard Hill:
So I think a lot of great takeaways there guys, the guys that are listening, you know, the Shopify app is Carro, yeah?
Alex Doyle:
Yes.
Richard Hill:
Where we can see the customers that are buying from us and then align that with their sort of social influence and obviously then you can reach out to them directly and say, "Hey I see you bought XYZ," or however ... you know, whatever your language and how you want to do it, obviously DMs and all that jazz, and then you know, get them talking, affiliate and promoting the products, and then naturally, you know, if they decide to take you up on that, they're going to start earning commissions directly through Awin, and I guess Awin will take care of all the financial side of things, literally, you get paid like normal through the Shopify store, and then Awin will send you a bill each month, you'll get a bill, and then the affiliate stroke influencer will get a pay-out from Awin directly.
Richard Hill:
So all quite clean, but yeah, I really like the Carro idea, I know I've seen quite a few of the new ... well they're not that new now, but the review companies, you know, that are out there, you know they have a similar thing where they see which companies have bought their product through Shopify or whatever it may be, and then they can again, tie that back in, you know, if they've left a review or not, but more so if they have left a review then they can say, "Gee," obviously and then we call get famous people that buy from us, or certainly famous people or influencers et cetera.
Richard Hill:
You know and I saw ... I was reading something in the week, it was somebody that have had ... I'm not sure if it was ... Connor McGregor I think it was had bought something off their website, so most of their stats were like that and then it was like … it was like, "Oh my God," you know, obviously get Connor McGregor to mention the product et cetera, you know, it's a whole another ... it's a busy few days sort of thing.
Richard Hill:
Okay, so a couple of years into ... since launch, obviously that's a ... quite a roller coaster journey from start to ... or start to today, but what sort of plans have you got in place to grow the business? What sort of ideas do you have for the next maybe ... we've got a busy quarter, I think the busiest quarter known to man is upon us for any e-com store, obviously we say that every year but even more so, we've got, obviously, COVID to contend with as well so you know, we've had I think the busiest quarter known to man. You know, summer, bizarrely enough, but obviously now we've got this crazy quarter upon us pretty much, so any particular plans and strategies for the next quarter? But then looking at beyond that, what are your plans for the sort of immediate future?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, I'm super interested to see how sort of Q4 develops this year, Black Friday and there are a lot of sort of ... a lot of brands out there that have been on constant promotions et cetera during COVID, so it'll be interesting to see the sort of knock-on effect that has. It's not something we ... we've never been really super discount-focused, minus a few events a year, so it'll be interesting to see what happens there, but more broadly we're really having a focus in the next couple of months on our new product launches, we've got a big aim to really sort of increase our average order value, and also our sort of retention rate, which is okay, at around 20, 25% at the moment, retention rate, but we want to get that up and I think our current product range has sort of got quite a long lifespan, so having products in there as well which ... having more products in there which customers can add to their routine can only be a good thing.
Alex Doyle:
I think it will also then ... if we can get that average order and that retention rate up a bit it gives just a bit more sort of flex in our budget and our CPAs as well, which is always good.
Richard Hill:
Focusing on a lifetime value, additional products that will cross-sell type products, retention. Yeah okay.
Alex Doyle:
Yeah massively, I mean that's a big thing that we've ... one of the big changing sort of going to a more sort of combo focus in terms of our sales, which was towards the end of last year when we moved from sort of focusing more on individual product sales to bundles and that's really paid for us really.
Richard Hill:
So I guess, you know, as a young man, or a man, you know, you're buying your products, but if you're helping to cure and conceal acne and spots and the various different skin conditions and you sort of ... that's a niche, you know, absolutely, but then are you planning on then having completely different products to go after that? So obviously ... because if you say, you know, you acquired that customer, they're buying your product every other month to conceal or to help cure, I guess then it's like what else are you going to sell them because you've now cured it or you've helped that problem, so it's like ... is there a sort of roadmap of products that you're looking at rolling out that are not maybe skin concealer and that type of thing, spot concealer?
Alex Doyle:
No, yeah you're spot on there really. It was quite interesting actually, because when I started the business, we started with two main products which is our moisturizer and our concealer, so moisturizer, obviously moisturizer's more skincare, most guys know about moisturizing they don't use it perhaps, but concealer's obviously a bit more niche. I thought initially, "Okay, what will happen is the moisturizer will be the gateway product into the brand and then people will sort of look around and buy the more cosmetic-focused products." In reality I was completely wrong, I was talking nonsense. Basically the problem with moisturizer is it's not the easiest thing to sell over the internet because you don't have that touch and smell element of it obviously, and it's a much more crowded field.
Alex Doyle:
Whereas men's cosmetics, at the time particularly, was less crowded, and there's a much more sort of visible impact of what you can show via social ads for instance, obviously it's easier to show, tutorial videos when it's something that's visibly being changed dark circles, and then what we've seen essentially is now most of our customers on the first purchase are buying our concealer, our BB cream, the cosmetic products, and then they're coming back and buying the skincare products and then that and then those are the products they're sort repurchasing and repurchasing, because they have a sort of shorter lifespan. So yeah, what you're saying basically is spot on whereby we're sort of looking to move out, expand away from purely makeup to skincare, broader male grooming-
Richard Hill:
I've got two teenage sons, one's 13, I had to think there, 13, 15, and they've got a bathroom each, you know, en-suite and whatnot, I walk in their bathroom I thought ... I thought I had some gear, so it's just like you know, they're obviously really into, as a lot of young men and women are, obviously into looking good and smelling good and you know, the different ... yeah he's got different ... I won't mention any brands maybe but they're all the different products and different brands and you can just sort of see now they've started on that journey as a probably 13 year old, or even probably 12 they probably started you know, they get all the different aftershaves for Christmas from Uncle whatever and Auntie this, you know, they've got them all stacked up from the last four years-
Alex Doyle:
Yeah it definitely seems like it's getting more and more image focused as we go sort of through the generations, it is what it is.
Richard Hill:
Whenever we're going out, yeah my kids, I mean they look so bloody smart and smell so good, and it's just like ... I mean I'm sure we all did, but it's like, wow, you know, they're really ... they take pride in their appearance which is great as boys as well.
Alex Doyle:
Speaking of teenagers, something else I did want to touch on actually when we were talking about growth is sort of TikTok is something we're doing a lot more of now. We started advertising on TikTok over summer, it's been a journey, there's obviously highs and lows of it, but generally I mean the CPMs are so much lower than Facebook, I mean it's a really cool platform and I think as it develops more, when the app platform develops more it's going to be a really cool tool for marketers moving forward.
Richard Hill:
Yeah we were asked to join the partner program about four months ago, which we did accept and we signed up but then we ... we've been that busy with the Google Shopping side that we decided just to hold for now, but obviously we're seeing ... obviously it's all brand new isn't it? It's only like four or five months it been out there really, but amazing, we've got a lot of agency friends that, you know, other agencies, obviously crazy low CPMs and whatnot, but I've not heard massively of sort of, you know ... what would your stance be on return? You know, return on ad spend and sort of early days?
Alex Doyle:
Like I say, it's very up and down, like when we first launched our TikTok ads we saw an immense return like immediately, it was really exciting for the first three to five days, and suddenly it started to lull, and further, and then suddenly it sort of out, and then we started up again ... so we sort of stopped advertising there for a few weeks and started up again a few weeks ago, and starting to see good results again actually. The problem is, I find with the platform, the tracking isn't as advanced as Facebook, so it's difficult to sort of monitor, we're having to use discount codes which is a bit ... that's basically sales which is always, you know, you're not going to get the full picture.
Alex Doyle:
But I mean we were seeing pretty good returns and particularly when TikTok at the moment are sort of helping advertisers out, I think they're doing a sort of double your ad spend promotion at the moment whereby you spend 100 quid, you get your 100 quid free credit, so it's kind of halving the sort of CPA which is-
Richard Hill:
Yeah, I mean it certainly pushes ... obviously they're advertising on the telly, they're advertising everywhere to advertise the fact that you can advertise on there, but I've yet to see or hear ... I mean we're not doing the ads yet, so it's not first-hand, but I've yet to hear of anybody say about return, and I know it's early days, but it's something we will ... I think we will probably hold off until in the new year, personally, but it's obviously an interesting one, especially for you know, your target audience.
Alex Doyle:
I think we're a good sort of market influencer.
Richard Hill:
Yeah we interviewed another lady from Beauty Boulevard about three months ago, and that's something they're looking at. They're a cosmetic brand, various products, Glitter Lips and whatnot, and various other products, but it's something that I know they were looking at as well. Okay so what would you say has been your biggest challenge as a young business owner?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah, I'd probably say it is sort of re-innovating in a sense. I mean we've only been going for like say, two, two-and-a-bit years now, but even then like say, new brands are coming into the market, you've sort of come up with an approach that's working, and then you've got to sort of adapt as you go along really, because like I say, other brands sort of catch hold of what's working, and you've got to change again and I think it's quite easy, in a way, to come up with the idea ... the first idea, the idea for a business and an original sort of marketing campaign around it, "Okay we're going to do this and market it." I think it's very tough to sort of constantly be creative, constantly come up with new ideas.
Alex Doyle:
And I think the way I personally have sort of started to get over that sort of block is having people around me that I can sort of bounce ideas off and sort of having a lot more contact with people who, you know, know what they're doing as well, which is always useful, but I think early days, particularly ... I mean I was on my own, I was doing it and then it's ... it can be quite tough to really be constantly coming up with new ideas-
Richard Hill:
And I guess that's where that community aspect of your brand and the social platforms that you're engaged in and the encouraging them to post about their experience with your brand, obviously your community are giving you the ideas, or you're getting ideas or offshoots of ideas, and sort of self-perpetuates you know, "Oh I didn't think of that," I saw a video of ... you know, I was looking at your ads before you came on, looking at your Facebook ads library, seeing what ads you were running, and the tutorials and the different ... you know, like waiting for it to be it was very creative, you know I think if you ... I think there are guys that are listening into the podcast, and I would recommend that you have a little look at what Altr London are doing, you know, and I would seriously go and check them out on Facebook, I'd go and check their ... you know, obviously if it was a product you were interested in, absolutely, but also I would have a look at the way that they're, you know, managing their pages, the way that they are managing their ads, you know, for those that don't know, you can look at anybody's ads by going to the Facebook ads library, just Google that, Facebook.com/ads/library I think it is.
Richard Hill:
You can see all your ads, everyone knows that now-ish I think, so you know, but it'll give you some good insight, the guys that are listening, on some of the ideas, creative ideas, community-driven ideas that you can come up with as a brand, and obviously you know ... and obviously try the products if it's something that interests you. So thanks Alex for being on the podcast. I always like to end every episode with a book recommendation, it doesn't matter what it is, it can be cosmetics, it can be mindset, it can be traffic, it can be whatever you'd like it to be.
Alex Doyle:
No yeah, I think for me one of my favourites is probably the ... it's called The Undoing Project, it's by Michael Lewis, if you don't know, he wrote The Big Short, which is obviously a massively famous film now, but this book's actually to do with Danial Khaneman, who you might also know from ... he wrote Thinking Fast and Slow, which is a super popular book today in terms of ... and he's sort of seen as the sort of founder of behavioural psychology, so Michael Lewis' book actually follows his journey, how he came up with his theories with his partner Amos Tversky. I just find ... I personally find behavioural psychology so interesting; I find it really important as well for the mindset of a marketer particularly.
Richard Hill:
I think that sort of area obviously is so important with ad copy, creative, content, community, engagement, all that sort of side of things, it all crosses over doesn't it? Okay, well thank you very much for being on the podcast. So if the guys that are listening want to find out more about yourself, more about the brand, what's the best way to do that Alex?
Alex Doyle:
Yeah I mean you can go to our website www.altrlondon.com or just check us out on Instagram @AltrLondon, everywhere basically at Altr London where ... places you can find us, we'll be there I'm sure.
Richard Hill:
Well thanks for being a guest on the podcast, I look forward to speaking to you again soon. Thank you.
Alex Doyle:
Thanks so much, have a good day.